Author Topic: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter  (Read 17244 times)

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Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #160 on: January 21, 2010, 02:37:13 am »
Well, and being fluent in a language that does the exact same thing -- Japanese -- where many verbs are formed with NOUN+する(suru).  Again the verb for love in Japanese is 愛(ai:noun)する(suru:do), I would call this a verb.  Just because the ending inflects or in Latin characters you write them as two words, doesn't really matter to me, personally.
Actually, you're fluent in two languages that do (more or less) the same thing. English does it alot with verb + preposition.

I put the Neytiri poster up on my bedroom wall..

I put up with my friends taking the piss out of me for that.

They put me down, but their insults don't matter.

= phrasal verbs

Phrasal verbs!  I hope that's a good word for it. :)  Actually I was just talking about how Japanese also uses the verb "to do" to make phrasal verbs from nouns.  I hadn't really though of verb + preposition being more or less the same thing.  Now that I have a more specific word for it, maybe I can get out of trouble with the grammer police.   ;D

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Txaslan

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #161 on: January 21, 2010, 02:38:08 am »
This is fantastic! New words and new grammar! What could we want more? ;D

Offline Eight

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #162 on: January 21, 2010, 02:42:31 am »
I hadn't really though of verb + preposition being more or less the same thing.  Now that I have a more specific word for it, maybe I can get out of trouble with the grammer police.   ;D
In all my years of speaking English, I'd never even thought about them until a course I was on mentioned the subject. They're something you use and never really consider in depth.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #163 on: January 21, 2010, 02:51:01 am »
The English construct of verb+preposition would be a phrasal verb for sure, but wouldn't the Na'vi (And Japanese) construct be considered a "compound verb" instead?  (Phrasal verb = verb + preposition or verb + adverb, compound verb = verb + noun or verb + verb)

Both "si" and "tìng" get many uses in forming compound verbs in Na'vi.  Most are noun on verb, but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline roger

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #164 on: January 21, 2010, 03:00:13 am »
Most are noun on verb, but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.
Okay, that deserves some karma!

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #165 on: January 21, 2010, 03:08:47 am »
The English construct of verb+preposition would be a phrasal verb for sure, but wouldn't the Na'vi (And Japanese) construct be considered a "compound verb" instead?  (Phrasal verb = verb + preposition or verb + adverb, compound verb = verb + noun or verb + verb)

Both "si" and "tìng" get many uses in forming compound verbs in Na'vi.  Most are noun on verb, but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.
Heheh...  The verb give often ends up grammaticalizing to do this type of thing (benefactive), so we might find this happening in other places, which would be cool!  I'm not sure how we want to class the noun + si things, tho...  Hopefully things will become clearer when we have more verbs

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #166 on: January 21, 2010, 03:09:10 am »
...but we get some hot verb on verb action as well with yomtìng.

 :D  Second best thing I heard all day (after Dr. Frommer's message)
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Eight

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #167 on: January 21, 2010, 03:18:26 am »
The English construct of verb+preposition would be a phrasal verb for sure, but wouldn't the Na'vi (And Japanese) construct be considered a "compound verb" instead?
Maybe yeah.

I mentioned the phrasal verbs as one way in English that a verb is joined to another part of speech to form one new construct. i.e. they're not two words interacting, they're essentially one verb with a space in the middle.

Offline Txaslan

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #168 on: January 21, 2010, 04:12:28 am »
I think a in sentences like tì'eyngit oel tolel a krr, is used in much the same way as de in chinese.

The same sentence in chinese (in pinyin without tones):

Wo shoudao huida de shihou...

Where
wo = I = oel
shoudao = receive = tolel
huida = answer = tì'eyngit
de = relative particle connecting two sentences, indicating there's a relation between them = a
shihou = time = krr

Except word order and cases, the two sentences are equivalent.

Literally = The time (that) I receive the answer.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #169 on: January 21, 2010, 04:24:33 am »
Has anyone noticed that the grammatic role "tsakrr" fills isn't that of a noun, like tsa+othernoun typically (Presumably) would?

We see this in Avatar too, "Oel pot spìmìyang, tsakrr za'a aungia ta Eywa" - I was about to kill him, then(that-time) come sign from Eywa

Tì'eyngit oel tolel a krr, ayngaru payeng, tsakrr paye'un sweya fya'ot a zamivunge oel ayngar aylì'ut horentisì lì'fyayä leNa'vi.
I get answer which time, will tell to you, then(that-time) decide best way that I give to you words and rules of Na'vi language
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline roger

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #170 on: January 21, 2010, 04:46:41 am »
Yes, I asked Frommer about it, and he said that he didn't have time to go into it right now, but that it wasn't an error.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #171 on: January 21, 2010, 04:47:39 am »
I didn't think it was an error...  As I pointed out the same form is used in Avatar.  However IANAL so I don't know the correct linguistic term for what the word is doing there.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline roger

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #172 on: January 21, 2010, 05:47:42 am »
I was just trying to reassure that he's aware of this and it's intentional. It would seem that it's being used as an adverb. Consider English "today", which can be both a noun (today is a beautiful day) and an adverb (I think I'll go today). Maybe he had s.t. like this in mind. Or maybe it's ellipsis of some sort -- won't really know until he has more time.

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #173 on: January 21, 2010, 08:54:48 am »
Quote
fì-txan — not "adj-great", but "this-great"
I dunno about that...  What is "this"?  And where is it in the translation?  It looks to me like fìtxan is modifying the adverb, and is thus adjective-y.  (If this is true, it is interesting to note that we don't have an attributive when an adjective modifies an adverb.)

I'm not sure if fì- would work as "this" in this case, but I think he's just pointing that out as we have "txan" (great) and typically any time we see fì- stuck onto a word it means "this (word)."
(i.e.: fì-tseng::this.place | fì-ay-vrrtep[fayvrrtep]::this.PL.demon[these.demons] | fì'u::this.thing)

Also, adverbs can only be modified by other adverbs, adjectives only modify nouns or pronouns. (This is one English grammar rule I'm certain of. :P )

Quote
tì-yawne-it — if you're gonna break it up, the root is yawne
Well, I'm not sure it is...  Based on the discussion above, we have "yawne" for "beloved" and "tìyawn" for the noun "love," and thus a mystery /e/ that disappears.  I'm betting that the /e/ is actually forming an adjective somehow, so that "yawn" will turn out to be the verb "to love."  It is speculative, yes, but no more so than saying that that /e/ goes away but doesn't come back before the accusative -t.

Yeah I don't really know what the deal is with this word either, but I'm afraid that "yawn" being "to love" has been strictly debunked by Frommer himself (according to roger and Prrton).

What I think is the case here is that yawne means beloved and adding tì- onto it simply turns it into the abstract noun associated with "beloved," which would be "love."

Quote
fì-'u-t-a — you can break it down further
I'm not sure what you're referring to here.

He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 08:57:51 am by Alìm Tsamsiyu »
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Tawtute

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #174 on: January 21, 2010, 09:40:33 am »
I was thinking about kìyevame and have some suggestions (sorry if someone already has it from other, more official resourse)
This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.
What everyone thinks about that?

P.S. sorry for bad eenglish.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #175 on: January 21, 2010, 10:00:54 am »
He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)

Yeah, fì'u-t-a seems like what it breaks down too but why do you drop the ì' and I also don't see why it needs an accusative infix on it.

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #176 on: January 21, 2010, 10:37:01 am »
He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)

Yeah, fì'u-t-a seems like what it breaks down too but why do you drop the ì' and I also don't see why it needs an accusative infix on it.

Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #177 on: January 21, 2010, 10:58:50 am »
He's talking about the word "futa" which I THINK breaks down into this.thing.which or something to that effect. (Not sure what the -t- does in it.)

Yeah, fì'u-t-a seems like what it breaks down too but why do you drop the ì' and I also don't see why it needs an accusative infix on it.

Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?

Perhaps it's a new word that's derived from 'fì'u' but cannot be directly broken down to 'fì'u'

Offline Na'rìghawnu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #178 on: January 21, 2010, 11:00:52 am »
Quote
Has anyone noticed that the grammatic role "tsakrr" fills isn't that of a noun, like tsa+othernoun typically (Presumably) would?

Well ... doesn't seem to be something new, since it's the same in the "Hunt Song":

   Pxan  livu  txo  nì’aw  oe  ngari                Only if I am worthy of you
   Tsakrr  nga  Na’viru  yomtìyìng.                then will you feed the People.


Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #179 on: January 21, 2010, 11:09:27 am »
Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?

The /t/ is there because it is the object of the verb:

I know that (...).
Subj V Obj

You're getting the subordinate clause marker taking the case for the whole clause..

 

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