Author Topic: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter  (Read 17175 times)

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Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #180 on: January 21, 2010, 11:13:35 am »
Has anyone noticed that the grammatic role "tsakrr" fills isn't that of a noun, like tsa+othernoun typically (Presumably) would?

We see this in Avatar too, "Oel pot spìmìyang, tsakrr za'a aungia ta Eywa" - I was about to kill him, then(that-time) come sign from Eywa

Tì'eyngit oel tolel a krr, ayngaru payeng, tsakrr paye'un sweya fya'ot a zamivunge oel ayngar aylì'ut horentisì lì'fyayä leNa'vi.
I get answer which time, will tell to you, then(that-time) decide best way that I give to you words and rules of Na'vi language
Hmm...  To me, tsakrr just seems like a normal "then" conjunction type thing.  For /a krr/, I wonder if it's something more like "at the same time..."  So maybe this is more like "As soon as I hear, I will tell you.  And then, after I've told you, at some point, I'll decide..."

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #181 on: January 21, 2010, 11:16:24 am »
Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?

The /t/ is there because it is the object of the verb:

I know that (...).
Subj V Obj

You're getting the subordinate clause marker taking the case for the whole clause..

doh, I looked through that sentence looking specifically for that but some how overlooked it. Anyway, irayo.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #182 on: January 21, 2010, 12:09:14 pm »
This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.

Perhaps it's reflexive (we know this is possible from Frommer, just not what the infix is), "we'll see *each other*."
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #183 on: January 21, 2010, 12:19:38 pm »
This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.

Perhaps it's reflexive (we know this is possible from Frommer, just not what the infix is), "we'll see *each other*."

Oooo, I like were you're going with this, makes a lot of sense to me and I don't think we've had any other cannon phrases that have used anything that could be similar to a reflexive form, yes?

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #184 on: January 21, 2010, 12:29:42 pm »
This kìyevame breaks up into kame, ìy, and ev. We know that the whole meaning is “see again soon”.
We know that ìy is recent future infix, so kìyame is “see soon”, but what is ev? If think that is the infix for repeating, so kevame would mean “re-see”.

Perhaps it's reflexive (we know this is possible from Frommer, just not what the infix is), "we'll see *each other*."

Oooo, I like were you're going with this, makes a lot of sense to me and I don't think we've had any other cannon phrases that have used anything that could be similar to a reflexive form, yes?

Dr. Frommer has confirmed in personal emails (not to me) that there is no <ev> infix.  Why it's there in kìyevame, has not been explained though.

-Keyl
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #185 on: January 21, 2010, 12:37:43 pm »
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
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Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #186 on: January 21, 2010, 12:42:11 pm »
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(

Agreed, a blanket statement saying that <ev> doesn't exist really screws things up... I guess that means '(k)ev' is in some way a (possibly liniated) word, probably one that we don't have?

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #187 on: January 21, 2010, 12:47:39 pm »
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(

Agreed, a blanket statement saying that <ev> doesn't exist really screws things up... I guess that means '(k)ev' is in some way a (possibly liniated) word, probably one that we don't have?

High traffic words have a tendency to be irregular  It's probably not going to be anything we use anywhere else, sadly.

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #188 on: January 21, 2010, 12:59:00 pm »
I'm still thinking it's going to turn out to be the subjunctive:

"May (we) see (each other) soon!"

Offline Robert Nantangä Tirea

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #189 on: January 21, 2010, 01:36:27 pm »
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...

Confirmation on chained possessiveness, if I'm correct?

Useful for things like "... my bow's string's length...". Appears to be order dependent but not location dependent around the possessed object?

If I am translating the sentence right, it reads Language (of) 'your (one/particular)'(?) young-friend Markus... it looks like you can put the possessor nouns before or after their object (language your(one/particular) friend's) OR (your(one/particular) friend's language).

much to think about  :)
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 01:39:37 pm by Robert Nantangä Tirea »

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Offline Robert Nantangä Tirea

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #190 on: January 21, 2010, 01:46:42 pm »
(clip) However IANAL so... (clip)

wow... I just got this.... *facepalm*

tslolam!  ;)

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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #191 on: January 21, 2010, 01:53:28 pm »
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...
word-PL-per 1-PL-INCL-GEN friend-GEN young-ATTR

Awngeyä 'eylan a'ewan...
Our young friend

Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...
The words of our young friend
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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #192 on: January 21, 2010, 01:55:03 pm »
Yeah that -t- really bothers me, I don't have a clue what it does there.

It looks like the accusative, but I don't think it would work like that...

Maybe someone else has a better idea?

The /t/ is there because it is the object of the verb:

I know that (...).
Subj V Obj

You're getting the subordinate clause marker taking the case for the whole clause..

Ahh OK.  That's what I was speculating in my mind but it didn't seem to work right until I saw it written down. Oe ngaru irayo si.

(clip) However IANAL so... (clip)

wow... I just got this.... *facepalm*

tslolam!  ;)

What did you think it was before? Hopefully not something to do with aytìm...
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #193 on: January 21, 2010, 01:57:11 pm »
Aylì'ufa awngeyä 'eylanä a'ewan...

Confirmation on chained possessiveness, if I'm correct?

Useful for things like "... my bow's string's length...". Appears to be order dependent but not location dependent around the possessed object?

If I am translating the sentence right, it reads Language (of) 'your (one/particular)'(?) young-friend Markus... it looks like you can put the possessor nouns before or after their object (language your(one/particular) friend's) OR (your(one/particular) friend's language).
I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #194 on: January 21, 2010, 02:01:26 pm »
I was thinking about "work" some more...

Frommer says "kan" is "aim," which probably becomes "kang" because of the following /k/.  The "kem," I think, is the same morpheme we see in, e.g., "fìkem, tsakem," etc., where it refers to a manner or action.  So

tìkangkem si

would be, literally, "do like aiming," "do in a way like aiming," which, if you're a hunter, is probably a bit like a writer using "put pen to paper" to refer to work...

Offline Robert Nantangä Tirea

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #195 on: January 21, 2010, 02:04:11 pm »
Any refrence for awgne as us (leading to awngeyä as our)?


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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #196 on: January 21, 2010, 02:05:05 pm »
I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."

It can probably be broken down to: Ay-lì'u-fa (PL-word-by.means.of)

Which would then suggest "Words (that came to us) by means of Markus, our young friend"

Of course this interpretation somewhat disregards the -GEN on the end of friend... :/
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #197 on: January 21, 2010, 02:06:12 pm »
Any refrence for awgne as us (leading to awngeyä as our)?



He uses "awnga" to mean "us" as a contracted version of ayoeng quite a few times in the message.

This would then go to "awngeyä" using awnga + -eyä pronoun genitive suffix.
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #198 on: January 21, 2010, 02:45:27 pm »
I think this is actually:

Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young

So we get:

[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."

It can probably be broken down to: Ay-lì'u-fa (PL-word-by.means.of)

Which would then suggest "Words (that came to us) by means of Markus, our young friend"

Of course this interpretation somewhat disregards the -GEN on the end of friend... :/

The English version is the "words of our young friend" variety.
By means of the words of our young friend
Of young friend = 'eylanä a'ewan
Our = awngeyä

It's a little twisted because you have "our" associated to the noun to the right, then "our young friend" assicated to the left of that.  But that is the only interpretation that makes sense in that context, since pronouns can not really be possessed.  I'm not sure why he did it that way, and I'm disappointed because I was curious what would happen if the adjective slipped between the nouns.  However, there are cases which make a difference..

If it were (Dropping the adposition)...
Aylì'u sempulyä oeyä 'eylanä a'ewan
The words of my young friend's father?
The words of my father's young friend?


In this case I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.  Without the pronoun that wouldn't be possible, but you can always stick a pronoun in there, because it is someone's father and someone's friend.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Kiliyä

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #199 on: January 21, 2010, 02:49:46 pm »
If it were (Dropping the adposition)...
Aylì'u sempulyä oeyä 'eylanä a'ewan
The words of my young friend's father?
The words of my father's young friend?

In this case I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.  Without the pronoun that wouldn't be possible, but you can always stick a pronoun in there, because it is someone's father and someone's friend.
the words of the father of the young friend of me.

aylì'u sempulyä 'eylanä a'ewan oeyä...
Peu sa'nokyä ayoengyä?  Pefya ayoeng poeru kìte'e sayi?
Pefya ayoengìl poeti hayawnu, na poel ayoengit hawnu?

What of our mother?  How shall we serve her?  How shall we protect her as she protects us?

 

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