Author Topic: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter  (Read 17388 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
  • Karma: 15
  • Skxawng Makto
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #200 on: January 21, 2010, 02:57:15 pm »
If it were (Dropping the adposition)...
Aylì'u sempulyä oeyä 'eylanä a'ewan
The words of my young friend's father?
The words of my father's young friend?

In this case I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.  Without the pronoun that wouldn't be possible, but you can always stick a pronoun in there, because it is someone's father and someone's friend.
the words of the father of the young friend of me.

aylì'u sempulyä 'eylanä a'ewan oeyä...

Right - I think that's what he meant by
Quote
I *THINK* it could be disambiguated by the same means, moving the pronoun to before sempul or after 'eylan.
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #201 on: January 21, 2010, 03:01:13 pm »
Srane, that is exactly what I meant by it.  The pronoun can not be possessed (My father's me?  Me of my father?  Doesn't make sense) so you start at the pronoun and work out.  I'd imagine once you start throwing in multiple genitives like that you'd need a pronoun somewhere in there for that reason, even if that's just a fì'u (Or other fì, tsa, fay, etc word)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6135
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #202 on: January 21, 2010, 03:02:58 pm »
Can anyone confirm the part:

Quote
mipa aylì'u 'upxareyä ta Karyu Pawl / new vocabulary from the message from Karyu Paul

does that mean: mip = new ?


Quote
Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young
So we get:
[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."

fa is the adposition for "with, by means of", if I'm not mistaken

Irayo

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

  • Tute
  • ***
  • Posts: 326
  • Karma: 15
  • Skxawng Makto
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #203 on: January 21, 2010, 03:10:33 pm »
Can anyone confirm the part:

Quote
mipa aylì'u 'upxareyä ta Karyu Pawl / new vocabulary from the message from Karyu Paul

does that mean: mip = new ?


Quote
Ay-lì'ufa awnge-yä 'eylan-ä a'ewan...
PL-word(?) our-GEN friend-GEN young
So we get:
[Aylì'ufa [awngeyä ['eylanä a'ewan]]...
lit., "word of the young friend of ours..."

fa is the adposition for "with, by means of", if I'm not mistaken

Irayo


I'm pretty sure that has been confirmed about mip.

And I think we beat you to the punch on -fa :P

(P.S: Does anybody else think Prrton's avatar pic is a bit creepy? Something about the eyes.. [sorry Prrton!])
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Ftiafpi

  • Olo'eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 4759
  • Karma: 123
  • Plltxe 'eylan ulte fpxäkìm.
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #204 on: January 21, 2010, 03:17:29 pm »
(P.S: Does anybody else think Prrton's avatar pic is a bit creepy? Something about the eyes.. [sorry Prrton!])

You're not alone :P

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6135
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #205 on: January 21, 2010, 03:39:49 pm »
I'm pretty sure that has been confirmed about mip.

And I think we beat you to the punch on -fa :P

Okay, great.

I was just writing it again, because suomichris didn't seem to know what it meant...

Yeah, Prrton's pic looks like Gollum gone blue ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 04:20:29 pm by Plumps83 »

Offline roger

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • Karma: 22
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #206 on: January 21, 2010, 03:51:09 pm »
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
Well, he said that in response to my mishearing <iv> for <ev> in a different verb; I immediately asked why we get it then in kìyevame, but he hasn't[evidential infix here] gotten to that part of his email backlog yet. If he did mean it across the board, as his wording would suggest, then maybe the <ev> here is sound change on <iv>, "may (we) see (e.o.) soon", as suomichris suggested.

Offline roger

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • Karma: 22
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #207 on: January 21, 2010, 04:56:12 pm »
So tìkangkem si would be, literally, "do like aiming," "do in a way like aiming," which, if you're a hunter, is probably a bit like a writer using "put pen to paper" to refer to work...
That's a nice analogy.

Offline roger

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • Karma: 22
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #208 on: January 21, 2010, 05:01:52 pm »
Yeah, Prrton's pic looks like Gollum gone blue ;D
I was just thinking a Na'vi hobbit. Not creepy, though.

Offline suomichris

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Karma: 13
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #209 on: January 21, 2010, 06:09:02 pm »
Well that sort of ruängins that fun. :(
Well, he said that in response to my mishearing <iv> for <ev> in a different verb; I immediately asked why we get it then in kìyevame, but he hasn't[evidential infix here] gotten to that part of his email backlog yet. If he did mean it across the board, as his wording would suggest, then maybe the <ev> here is sound change on <iv>, "may (we) see (e.o.) soon", as suomichris suggested.
Sorry, roger, I thought I had responded to what you said, and can't find the bit in question now... Can you repost/restate what you said/asked/queried?

Offline suomichris

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Karma: 13
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #210 on: January 21, 2010, 06:11:21 pm »
So tìkangkem si would be, literally, "do like aiming," "do in a way like aiming," which, if you're a hunter, is probably a bit like a writer using "put pen to paper" to refer to work...
That's a nice analogy.
Thanks!  I don't want to go nuts-o (OOPS! Too late) trying to parse out everything we find, but since we have both kan and kem for sure, and that this explains both why it shows up with si and a nominalizer....  Ya, I think this is probably more solid than some of my other analyses :p

Offline wisnij

  • Tawtute
  • *
  • Posts: 93
  • Karma: 7
  • nerume fa kerar
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #211 on: January 21, 2010, 06:55:32 pm »
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
Not necessarily.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 06:57:15 pm by wisnij »
Wé cildra biddaþ þé, éalá láréow, þæt þú taéce ús sprecan rihte, forþám ungelaérede wé sindon, and gewæmmodlíce we sprecaþ.

Offline suomichris

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 475
  • Karma: 13
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #212 on: January 21, 2010, 07:08:18 pm »
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
Not necessarily.
I have never heard of this phenomenon, but fail to see how it is interesting...  Are you thinking this is what's happening in Na'vi?

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #213 on: January 21, 2010, 07:17:15 pm »
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
Not necessarily.
If I'm understanding what it's saying, I think we'd notice if Na'vi did it.

To take the genitive example they have of "man's feet" where the word for "man" gets the case from "feet", we'd end up with...  (Substituting in a word we know - eyes)

Mesutetiyä menariti
person-DUAL-ACC-GEN eye-DUAL-ACC

But we don't...  We get

Tuteyä menariti
person-GEN eye-DUAL-ACC

So within the context of Na'vi (Which is how I meant it...) I stand by that statement.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline roger

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • Karma: 22
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #214 on: January 21, 2010, 07:34:11 pm »
Ah, we have one possibly counterexample, at least according to the SG appendix. There sat is listed as "that" after ftu "from". I'd like to see the text for that to be sure, though.

Also, is "those" attested? We know "these" is fay-, but "those" could potentially be either tsay- or sa-. E.g., are the plurals of fì'u, tsa'u = fay'u, tsay'u or ayfí'u, sa'u?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 07:36:35 pm by roger »

Offline Keylstxatsmen

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 478
  • Karma: 20
    • Letrra Na'vi
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #215 on: January 21, 2010, 07:40:15 pm »
To the best of my knowledge, it is as nonsensical to combine a noun case and adposition as it is to combine two noun cases.
Mesutetiyä menariti
person-DUAL-ACC-GEN eye-DUAL-ACC

(emphasis mine)

I thought we were talking about noun case + adpositions?  Why does the non-combining of noun cases prove anything about that?

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #216 on: January 21, 2010, 07:50:42 pm »
Ah, we have one possibly counterexample, at least according to the SG appendix. There sat is listed as "that" after ftu "from". I'd like to see the text for that to be sure, though.

Also, is "those" attested? We know "these" is fay-, but "those" could potentially be either tsay- or sa-. E.g., are the plurals of fì'u, tsa'u = fay'u, tsay'u or ayfí'u, sa'u?
I don't see that as a counter example.  In fact, I see that as attesting that "ftu" is ADP+ and for some reason someone felt like listing the lenited accusitive "that" on it's own.

ftu + tsat = ftu sat
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3074
  • Karma: 143
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #217 on: January 21, 2010, 07:53:39 pm »
E.g., are the plurals of fì'u, tsa'u = fay'u, tsay'u or ayfí'u, sa'u?

I really hope fayu and *tsayu (assuming tsay- is correct).
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline roger

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • Karma: 22
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #218 on: January 21, 2010, 08:02:19 pm »
I don't see that as a counter example.  In fact, I see that as attesting that "ftu" is ADP+ and for some reason someone felt like listing the lenited accusitive "that" on it's own.

ftu + tsat = ftu sat
But accusative "that", correct? If the idea that we don't have multiple cases is right, we shouldn't get the accusative after ftu.

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #219 on: January 21, 2010, 08:13:04 pm »
I don't see that as a counter example.  In fact, I see that as attesting that "ftu" is ADP+ and for some reason someone felt like listing the lenited accusitive "that" on it's own.

ftu + tsat = ftu sat
But accusative "that", correct? If the idea that we don't have multiple cases is right, we shouldn't get the accusative after ftu.
Gee thanks for pointing out I'm contradicting myself. :P

Given that "after ftu" is their words, and assuming we are correct that "ftu" is a preposition (Which causing lenition seems to indicate - besides prepositions only prefixes cause lenition that I know of) that leads me to believe I was incorrect in declaring it as the accusitive "that".  Perhaps rather it is merely the root word "that" from which the prefix "tsa-" is derived from?  It does sort of sound close to how you would render the English "That" in Na'vi, truth be told.  (Slightly different vowel, but otherwise...)
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi