Author Topic: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter  (Read 17081 times)

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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2010, 03:42:34 pm »
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2010, 03:43:18 pm »
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2010, 03:45:02 pm »
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.
I think it's definitely a perfective.  After the hearing is over, he'll...

Offline Tanax

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2010, 03:45:12 pm »
Sorry if this is a bad time to ask but

'eylan friend (plurals: meylan(2), pxeylan(3), ayeylan(4+), eylan(lenited))

I'm not entirely sure where we got px(e) from (can't see it in the letter) but anyway :), does this mean that me- and px(e)- are confirmed to trigger lenition?

Don't forget ay- :)

Offline Eight

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2010, 03:46:36 pm »
Don't forget ay- :)
Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before). :)

1 See what I've done there!?!? :D

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #45 on: January 20, 2010, 03:48:00 pm »
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.
I think it's definitely a perfective.  After the hearing is over, he'll...
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #46 on: January 20, 2010, 03:50:00 pm »
One good thing for us to notice, too, is his use of aspect versus tense: fpole', perey, etc.

I looked at that and one thing threw me off:

"stolawm oel" I have heard - <ol> = Past perfective progressive?

Woops. Meant to say not passive. It's perfective. Doy.

English translation loss or addition, I feel. Not perfective, by my bet.
I think it's definitely a perfective.  After the hearing is over, he'll...
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.

Offline keye'ung makto

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #47 on: January 20, 2010, 03:50:07 pm »
amazing he jsut bypassed his contract to give us a teaser of  what is to come.

good work analyzing this  

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #48 on: January 20, 2010, 03:50:30 pm »
Don't forget ay- :)
Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before). :)

1 See what I've done there!?!? :D

Me- has been confirmed fairly well to cause lenition for quite a while.  Eytukan says: "Mefot yìm" meaning "Bind them," with "them" being "me+po-ACC."
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #49 on: January 20, 2010, 03:50:53 pm »
Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before).

me- has always been at war with Eastasia... wait, no, it has always been known to cause lenition.  The pxe- affix was known via email from Frommer to one of the Wikipedia editors, but was only made public in the last day or so.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
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Offline Eight

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #50 on: January 20, 2010, 03:52:00 pm »
Me- has been confirmed fairly well to cause lenition for quite a while.  Eytukan says: "Mefot yìm" meaning "Bind them," with "them" being "me+po-ACC."
Ack. I knew I should have paid more attention to that pronoun chart!!!!

Cheers mate.
Hahah Aye1, but that one was known for a while I think. Whereas I don't remember reading anything saying that me- did (and I'd never seen px- before).

me- has always been at war with Eastasia... wait, no, it has always been known to cause lenition.  The pxe- affix was known via email from Frommer to one of the Wikipedia editors, but was only made public in the last day or so.
Oooh. Great stuff. Thank you fella, I was beginning to think I'd missed the memo there. Lol.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 03:53:45 pm by Eight »

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #51 on: January 20, 2010, 03:53:00 pm »
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.

Right - but that is the perfective progressive form.  As in: "I have been learning" - Present progressive.
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Prrton

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #52 on: January 20, 2010, 03:57:59 pm »
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.

I would be good to know who it was that wrote the bottom portion of the message though.  Since they specifically state that these things cannot be done.

-Keyl

Tsaswirä lu oe.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.  Rä'ä si sat! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u. Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem.

« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 04:09:31 pm by Prrton »

Offline suomichris

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2010, 04:04:57 pm »
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.

Right - but that is the perfective progressive form.  As in: "I have been learning" - Present progressive.
I don't think so, it isn't progressive.  Progressive = imperfect, which doesn't make any sense if you combine it with a perfect.  That would be more like "I was heard that..."

What you're after is the past progressive (imperfect), which is <arm>, but isn't used here...

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2010, 04:09:08 pm »
mefo yìm - clearly heard in the movie.  I think I remember some other source for me causing lenition as well.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2010, 04:13:17 pm »
Whoop, sorry, not future... "He has heard," the hearing is over and done with, thus perfective.

Right - but that is the perfective progressive form.  As in: "I have been learning" - Present progressive.
I don't think so, it isn't progressive.  Progressive = imperfect, which doesn't make any sense if you combine it with a perfect.  That would be more like "I was heard that..."

What you're after is the past progressive (imperfect), which is <arm>, but isn't used here...

No, progressive != imperfect!

"I have studied for 3 years." = Past perfect progressive
"By the time they arrive, we will have died of old age!" = Future Perfect
"I have been working on my car, and now my hands are dirty." = Present Perfect Progressive

It's a tough call, upon re-studying up on my tenses, it seems that "have heard" can be either one! If this were written in English it would more likely be interpreted as Present Perfect Progressive (since it indicates a "Recently finished activity with a present result").  But, since <ol> is known to be perfect tense (and not perfect progressive) the sentence CAN be Past Perfect tense (but then that begs the question: why Past?).

The only two possibilities for the tense of the English "have heard" are Present Perfect Progressive and Past Perfect.

Since present tense is unmarked in Na'vi, it would seem that this is the former, but what about Progressive? Unmarked also?
Since there is no marker for progressive you could argue that it is the latter, but then there is no mark for past either, so that wouldn't work at all.
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2010, 04:15:17 pm »
Uploaded.

Derived *kangkem and *yawn, the verb. While assuming that tìyawn is the noun.

I would be good to know who it was that wrote the bottom portion of the message though.  Since they specifically state that these things cannot be done.

-Keyl

Tsaswirä lu oe.

Ayoengur vay set ke lu horen amuiä fpi lì'u kemä "kangkem" ta Karyu Pawl.  Rä'ä si sat! Nìmun pol horenìt fpi fìlì'u fpaye', slä ke vay set!!

lì'u 'uyä "yawn" tsun livu lì'u 'uyä nì'aw. KE TSUN lì'u kemä livu tìkenongfa "y-ol-awn" Kehe Kehe! Fì'u lu koren a Karyu Pawl zola'u. Ayoengur vay set fra'u a ayoeng zene tslivam fte pivlltxe fìlì'ut nìlì'u lekem.



If you are having trouble with Prrton's words here are some hints:

lì'u kemä = verb and lì'u 'uyä = noun

And some some give-aways:

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Malkollm Eanmenari

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #57 on: January 20, 2010, 04:16:51 pm »
This is so great!  I can't wait to pour through it!

Too bad I have to go to stupid class.... grumbles about students

Hey, we students are grumbling about having to go to Chem lab when we would much rather pour through this.  Freakin' night class.....

Offline Alìm Tsamsiyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #58 on: January 20, 2010, 04:18:42 pm »
My trouble with Prrton's post came from the (seemingly) improper lenition of koren to "horen" in the first sentence.

And also the fact that he calls himself a creature? :|

EDIT: Nevermind I caught why it was lenited, I feel dumb :|
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 04:21:31 pm by Alìm Tsamsiyu »
Oeyä ayswizawri tswayon alìm ulte takuk nìngay.
My arrows fly far and strike true.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Language Update - a closer look at Dr. Frommer's letter
« Reply #59 on: January 20, 2010, 04:20:19 pm »
horen can work. Just delete the ay+ or me+, as it's redundant. Or pxe+, for that matter.

Temporarily removed *kangkem and *tìyawn, pending further information. 

 

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