Learnings from the Siätllä song translations

Started by Prrton, July 11, 2011, 07:10:37 PM

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Tswusayona Tsamsiyu

I think the dictionary's definition is "onto" and "on" because in English their meanings can overlap.
for example:
put the book onto the shelf
put the book on the shelf

both mean the same.


I am aware of the fact K. Pawl agreed about that (I listened to the meeting recording), so perhaps he wanted another meaning (of the mantis climbing onto the trunk). but I think it is more likely that the original meaning was that he was already on the trunk.
Nivume Na'vit, fpivìl nìNa'vi, kivame na Na'vi.....
oer fko syaw tswusayona tsamsiyu

Plumps

Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on July 16, 2011, 12:46:41 PM
I am aware of the fact K. Pawl agreed about that (I listened to the meeting recording), so perhaps he wanted another meaning (of the mantis climbing onto the trunk). but I think it is more likely that the original meaning was that he was already on the trunk.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the interpretation of literary texts ;D

Lu pxaya fya'o a eyk Kelutralne ;) ... one possibility to say something doesn't make it superior/better over the another.

The first appearance of sìn was in The Spiral Song as 'The songs bind the thirteen spirals ... to the eight spirit paths' (Aywayìl yìm kifkeyä 'iheyut avomrr sìn tireafya'o avol)

Prrton

Quote from: Plumps on July 16, 2011, 12:57:00 PM
Quote from: Tswusayona Tsamsiyu on July 16, 2011, 12:46:41 PM
I am aware of the fact K. Pawl agreed about that (I listened to the meeting recording), so perhaps he wanted another meaning (of the mantis climbing onto the trunk). but I think it is more likely that the original meaning was that he was already on the trunk.

Welcome to the wonderful world of the interpretation of literary texts ;D

Lu pxaya fya'o a eyk Kelutralne ;) ... one possibility to say something doesn't make it superior/better over the another.

The first appearance of sìn was in The Spiral Song as 'The songs bind the thirteen spirals ... to the eight spirit paths' (Aywayìl yìm kifkeyä 'iheyut avomrr sìn tireafya'o avol)


And in that we really have to use TO in English.

My only issue is with the proclamation that sìn is WRONG for the context of "ON".

has many translations from Na'vi into English.

  Wan mì na'rìng. Hide IN the forest.
  Slele mì ora. Swim IN the lake.
  Srew mì tayo. Dance ON the plain.
  Uvan si mì ya. Play IN the air.
  Yom mì helku. Eat IN (INSIDE) the house.

In my mind ro is the most general locative. is a more specific locative that is more 'aware' of the nature of the spaces it indicates. And then there are others that are very specific. Sìn is one of those, and it refers to relationships to surfaces and physical contact.

  Yom ro helku oeyä. Eat at my house (not some other location). That may be inside or outside. TBD.
  Yom mì helku oeyä. Eat at my house (likely INSIDE it).
  Yom sìn kelku oeyä. Eat on (the roof of) my house.

My opinion is informed by the way the equivalents of appositions work in all of the languages I know. Every language is different and has its peculiarities in this regard, not just for basic mechanisms, but for subtle differences that evolve based on specific contexts.

I will continue to use it this way until I'm corrected by K. Pawl. He was totally free to change sìn to in these lyrics, and did not.


Ftiafpi

Quote from: Prrton on July 13, 2011, 05:03:32 PM
Quote from: Plumps on July 13, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 11, 2011, 07:10:37 PM
"To dry something" (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).

Just noticed that this could also mean that 'to clean something' could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?

Prrton

Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 16, 2011, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 13, 2011, 05:03:32 PM
Quote from: Plumps on July 13, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 11, 2011, 07:10:37 PM
"To dry something" (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).

Just noticed that this could also mean that 'to clean something' could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)


Ftiafpi

Quote from: Prrton on July 16, 2011, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 16, 2011, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 13, 2011, 05:03:32 PM
Quote from: Plumps on July 13, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 11, 2011, 07:10:37 PM
"To dry something" (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).

Just noticed that this could also mean that 'to clean something' could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)

Hmmmm, so would "yur" invariably require a solvent then?

Prrton

Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 17, 2011, 12:02:28 AM
Quote from: Prrton on July 16, 2011, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 16, 2011, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 13, 2011, 05:03:32 PM
Quote from: Plumps on July 13, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 11, 2011, 07:10:37 PM
"To dry something" (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).

Just noticed that this could also mean that 'to clean something' could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)

Hmmmm, so would "yur" invariably require a solvent then?

The only definition I see in the dictionary or have ever heard is WASH. When does that not require SOME solvent?  ???


Plumps

Quote from: Prrton on July 16, 2011, 01:35:57 PM
My only issue is with the proclamation that sìn is WRONG for the context of "ON".

has many translations from Na'vi into English.

  Wan mì na'rìng. Hide IN the forest.
  Slele mì ora. Swim IN the lake.
  Srew mì tayo. Dance ON the plain.
  Uvan si mì ya. Play IN the air.
  Yom mì helku. Eat IN (INSIDE) the house.
  Oeri skxir a mì syokx tìsraw sengi. The wound ON my hand hurts.

I agree with you completely and added another official use of to the list.

I just noticed now, on one of the pictures from the exhibition, and I hope it aligns with your sense of the word sìn. There is the sentence oeri nga kllkxem sìn kxetse as 'you're standing on my tail' (I don't know how much Dr. Frommer had to do with this, though) ... and I'm always fascinated by how far the inalienable topic can stand so far away from the word it refers to :-\


Quote from: Prrton on July 17, 2011, 12:07:01 AM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 17, 2011, 12:02:28 AM
Quote from: Prrton on July 16, 2011, 10:21:29 PM
Quote from: Ftiafpi on July 16, 2011, 10:16:18 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 13, 2011, 05:03:32 PM
Quote from: Plumps on July 13, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
Quote from: Prrton on July 11, 2011, 07:10:37 PM
"To dry something" (transitive) = _________-t/it/ti sleyku ukxo (not _______-r/ur/ru ukxo si).

Just noticed that this could also mean that 'to clean something' could be ____-t/-it/-ti sleyku laro ???

I thought about the same thing!!  ;D

Going back to this, why wouldn't we just use "yur"? Or is that more of a bodily "wash/shower/bath" action?

If you're cleaning up your camp in the middle of the plains you're not likely doing that with water.  ;)

Hmmmm, so would "yur" invariably require a solvent then?

The only definition I see in the dictionary or have ever heard is WASH. When does that not require SOME solvent?  ???

Yes, but I also think that there can be a difference again. We have the official sentence

     Nga zene yivur pxìm fìskxirit. You must clean the wound frequently (which would require liquid of some sort)

But I think one could also say:

     Nì'awve, nga zene fìskxirit sleykivu laro. You must clean this wound first (before propper treatment; which would mean pool out leaves, sticks, dirt etc. you get the picture ;) )

Prrton

Quote from: Plumps on July 17, 2011, 06:36:56 AM
Quote from: Prrton on July 16, 2011, 01:35:57 PM
My only issue is with the proclamation that sìn is WRONG for the context of "ON".

has many translations from Na'vi into English.

  Wan mì na'rìng. Hide IN the forest.
  Slele mì ora. Swim IN the lake.
  Srew mì tayo. Dance ON the plain.
  Uvan si mì ya. Play IN the air.
  Yom mì helku. Eat IN (INSIDE) the house.
  Oeri skxir a mì syokx tìsraw sengi. The wound ON my hand hurts.

I agree with you completely and added another official use of to the list.

I just noticed now, on one of the pictures from the exhibition, and I hope it aligns with your sense of the word sìn. There is the sentence oeri nga kllkxem sìn kxetse as 'you're standing on my tail' (I don't know how much Dr. Frommer had to do with this, though) ... and I'm always fascinated by how far the inalienable topic can stand so far away from the word it refers to :-\

That kiosk is canonical. K. Pawl wrote and recorded all of those audio samples (that one hears when one pushes the buttons) in conjunction with Brooks Peck (the curator of the exhibit). Sìn makes perfect sense to me here for this too.

It also makes sense that for a wounded hand we get . The wound is not separate from and just making contact/coming into contact with the skin. Presumably it penetrates the skin and involves the tissue layers immediately below. In my mind this parallels yom mì helku oeyä where the meal (while it's happening) is a part of the home. Uvan si mì na'rìng is the same deal.

Quote from: Plumps on July 17, 2011, 06:36:56 AM
Quote from: Prrton on July 17, 2011, 12:07:01 AM
The only definition I see in the dictionary or have ever heard is WASH. When does that not require SOME solvent?  ???

Yes, but I also think that there can be a difference again. We have the official sentence

     Nga zene yivur pxìm fìskxirit. You must clean the wound frequently (which would require liquid of some sort)

But I think one could also say:

     Nì'awve, nga zene fìskxirit sleykivu laro. You must clean this wound first (before propper treatment; which would mean pool out leaves, sticks, dirt etc. you get the picture ;) )


This is a good point. Yur is quite naturally translated here as 'clean', but I agree that some kind of liquid is strongly if not absolutely implied.