Author Topic: Life, Death, and gerunds  (Read 7111 times)

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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Life, Death, and gerunds
« on: May 16, 2010, 08:49:20 pm »
Kaltxì, ma smuk.  I recently sent a message to Karyu Pawl asking about the words for life and death—tìrey and kxitx, respectively.  I was a little surprised that "death" wasn't tìterkup, and wanted to ask about that.  You can read the relevant parts of my message here, if you want:


But of course, the important part is Karyu Pawl's reply:

ta Karyu Pawl:
Quote
LIFE
The verb 'to live,' as you know, is simply rey. Tìrey has been functioning as both the abstract concept of life ("Life should be joyful") and as an individual's own particular life, as in Oe tsole’a palulukanit atsawl frato mì sìrey, "I saw the biggest thanator I had ever seen (lit., the biggest thanator in [my] life)."

Tìrusey is the gerund form, corresponding to "living" as a subject or object: "Living here is pleasant. I like living here."

Note that the tì__us__ form is a general way to form gerunds, and it's entirely productive--that is, you can apply it freely to any verb and you'll get the corresponding gerund. That's in contrast to the tì__ form, the meaning of which is not always predictable. For example, tìrol means "song," not "singing." For the latter, you can use tìrusol, or for the abstract concept, tseo tìrusolä. That's why tì__ forms need to be listed in the lexicon, whereas tì__us__ forms don't.

DEATH
To die, as you know, is terkup. Tìterkup is death in the abstract sense: "Death is inevitable."

I thought I had used kxitx somewhere in the Avatar or video game dialog, but I checked and apparently I hadn't. In any event, I was thinking of kxitx as referring to the event of an individual's death: "His death was calm and peaceful."

By the way, "dead" is kerusey--i.e., not (or non-) living: "Hetuwongìl awngeyä swotut ska'a, fte kllkivulat keruseya tskxet."
[...]
Nga pamrel soli san sleykivu utralìl lì'fyayä leNa'vi pxaya ayvurit atxur sìk. Faylì'u alor oeru teya si nìtxan, ulte ke tswaya' oel sat kawkrr.

So... enjoy!

P.S. "[...]" Are things i've omitted because they're about where i'm going to school and such, not of interest to the community at large—don't worry, i wouldn't hold out on you ;)

Edit: I forgot to include one bit, because it was embedded in other things.  Karyu Pawl acknowledged the point about expecting another root to complement rey the same way that kxitx does terkup; he said he'll think about it.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2010, 10:44:29 pm by tigermind »
eo Eywa oe 'ia

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 08:54:54 pm »
tì__us__ =gerund!! Just as I had suspected!! Sweetness. Irayo seiyi oe ngar for this essential update dude!

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2010, 11:42:12 pm »
Txantsan ma 'eylan!  Oel nolew ivomum fì'ut sre sì’i’avay krrä.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2010, 11:49:42 pm »
So, does this mean that any tì- word can be made into a gerund with the <us> infix? That's more or less what I'm taking out of this (that you can't make anything into a gerund but anything that's already tì-ified can be made into one).

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2010, 12:56:52 am »
Other way around.  Any verb can get the <us> infix becomes a gerund with tì.  Tìrusol - n. singing.  Tìtusìng - n. giving.  Tìrusikx - n. moving.

I've been assuming this for awhile, but it's good to get a confirmation.  (In fact, it's one question off the list from combining our efforts.)  We've actually had conflicting and/or unclear information from Frommer on this.
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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2010, 02:34:34 am »
First of all, thanks for sharing.

This is a mine field ;) Now translations are really going to be difficult. The gerund is not concistent in translation in all languages… I think that requires more examples and rules when to apply – it’s time for those interactive lessons :D

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2010, 02:42:04 am »
Being only English speaking I'm not sure I see the minefield.  In Na'vi, it seems to be clearly an abstract noun representing the doing of the action.

Presumably the passive gerund would also be possible with tì+awn.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2010, 05:57:47 am »
Being only English speaking I'm not sure I see the minefield.  In Na'vi, it seems to be clearly an abstract noun representing the doing of the action.

Presumably the passive gerund would also be possible with tì+awn.

The minefield being that for example in German, Frommer’s example sentences »Living here is pleasant. I like living here.« can be either translated as »Hier zu leben ist angenehm. I mag es hier zu leben« or »Das (Zusammen)Leben hier ist angenehm. Ich mag das Leben hier.« which have (tì’efumì oeyä) different connotations to them. To complicate matters, ›our‹ gerund of »living« has the same form as »life«, namely »das Leben« (that’s why I wrote »Zusammenleben« above because there it is clear that it is meant as the gerund form… It’s not always the case but here it is.

Hm, can you give an example for the ›passive gerund‹?

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2010, 06:41:50 am »
I don't think that sentence in Na'vi would even use a gerund form.  Even if it does, I'm not even sure how "kelku si" would look in gerund form.  I think that's one for the list, participle (& gerund) form of auxiliary verbs.

Anyway, your English translation of those only uses a gerund for one case, then an infinitive for the other.  I don't know german to comment on that though.

Anyway, passive gerund....  In English it would be "being (gerund)"...  For example "Being eaten will ruin your day" or "I like being thanked".  In Na'vi, it would probably be something like *"Tìpawnom oeru prrte' lu."
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 06:56:28 am »
I don't think that sentence in Na'vi would even use a gerund form.

Hm, I understood Frommer’s examples as exactly that…

Quote from: ta Karyu Pawl
Tìrusey is the gerund form, corresponding to "living" as a subject or object: "Living here is pleasant. I like living here."

The translation issue is exactly my point ;) I’m pretty sure that most Germans haven’t even heard of a gerund (except those learning Latin or English) because we use other ways to convey these meanings (infinitive construction being one of them)

passive gerund – I would never have named your example as a gerund, but thanks for the clarification :)

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 07:59:08 am »
Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmuke. Nìtxan tsranten fmawn oer ;)
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 08:32:46 am by Kemaweyan »
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Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 08:20:51 am »
Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan. Nìtxan tsranten fmawn oer ;)

Tsmuke lu oe ;)  Tìtusìng aylì'ut Karyu Pawlä lì'fyaolo'ur oeru teya si; fì'u oeru prrte' lu.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 08:24:28 am »
It's good to know that it's entirely productive. That's great news.

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 08:29:33 am »
Tsmuke lu oe ;)  Tìtusìng aylì'ut Karyu Pawlä lì'fyaolo'ur oeru teya si; fì'u oeru prrte' lu.

Ngaytxoa
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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 08:36:41 am »
HRH, tam, ma Kemaweyan.  Fì'u ke tsranten nìngay.  Oe tìkxey si tengfya pxim—fì'u lu lun a oe plltxe san tsmuk sìk frakrr ;)
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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2010, 08:48:22 am »
Slä oe tsamun tsive'a tsat ulte pamrel sivi nìeyawr ::)

Txeleri lu oer tìpawmo. Nìawnolomum pxiswawam:

tìrol = song
tìrusol = singing
särol = ? (ke tsun oe tslivam fìlì'ut)

ulte tengfya:

sänume = teaching
tìnusume = ?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2010, 09:24:21 am by Kemaweyan »
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Offline Tsamsiуu

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2010, 09:42:05 am »
Kxawm oe tìkxey seri, slä:

Tìrol = song
Tìrusol = singing (process)
Särol = record (or maybe "singing" as abstract object)

Sänume = instruction, teaching (abstract meaning)
Tìnusume = teaching (process)
MEOAUNIAEA

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2010, 10:12:34 am »
Kxawm oe tìkxey seri, slä:

Tìrol = song
Tìrusol = singing (process)
Särol = record (or maybe "singing" as abstract object)

Sänume = instruction, teaching (abstract meaning)
Tìnusume = teaching (process)

kehe. Sä- is the instrument of the verb so särol is the instrument of singing, possibly an alternative word for voice in the context of singing ability.

Likewise, tìnusume would be learning because, whilst sänume is teaching/instruction, nume is learn not teach.
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2010, 12:02:41 pm »
Sran, mllte nìwotx furia tìnusume = learning, irayo ;)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

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Re: Life, Death, and gerunds
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2010, 12:33:17 pm »
Txantsan ma 'eylan!  Oel nolew ivomum fì'ut sre sì’i’avay krrä.

We don't really need to have "for" in this sense to say this. This "over time" paradigm has been sent to K. Pawl as a function of LEP Group A or B (I don't remember which), but we know from «Yola krr, txana krr, ke tsranten.» That "a long time" is «txana krr» ("much time"); AND, that time phrases as adverbs can stand alone just about anywhere in a sentence or clause to show the temporal reference.

Oe1 narmew ivomum fì'uteri txana krr nang!*

My apologies in advance for the unrequested nosing in on your sentiment, ma tsmuk. I'm very pleased to have it confirmed as PRODUCTIVE as well!  ;D

 

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