Author Topic: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”  (Read 654 times)

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Offline Plumps

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Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« on: December 15, 2015, 02:36:06 am »
I was curious about two examples that can be found on the movie line page and this little ‘pseudo canon’ example, but never made it to the dictionary, i.e. sänume si and zoplo si. I asked Paul about it and he responded.

Quote from: K. Pawl, 15 Dec 2015
As for the canonical examples for sänume si and zoplo si, the one for sänume si is totally accurate. The example for zoplo si needs a slight adjustment. It's just:

. . . fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.

I didn't have the - on kelkur, and there's no ke before the verb. The original English that I had to translate into Na'vi was: "I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!" Your Na'vi makes sense, of course, but from a slightly different angle: "No dreamwalker will come here, so as not to offend our home!" Although now I guess that should be fteke, right?

The line for sänume si I gave was:

Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng.
My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.

from the movie line page

So the line from the pseudo-canon bit should be:

Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!

 :D That’s it. Over and out ;)

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2015, 05:39:08 am »
Txantsan! :D

So, this line in the LN Wiki
Na'vi: Poltxe oe, san zene kea uniltìranyu, ke ziva'u fìtseng.
English: I have said: “No dreamwalker must not come to this place.”

should be edited to:
Na'vi: Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
English: I have said, "No dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!"

Kefyak?

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2015, 06:36:38 am »
Txantsan! Irayo nìmun ngar, ma Plumps :) Fìlì'u alu zoplo si sunu oer, lesar seiyi!

Ma Tìtstewan, ke spaw oel futa fìpamrelit zene leykivatem fkol, taluna Eytukan poltxe san Poltxe oe, san zene kea uniltìranyu, ke ziva'u fìtseng sìk relmì arusikx alu Uniltìrantokx. Slä ke omum nìno :-\
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 06:42:09 am by Eana Unil »

"Kifkeyl oeti fneyku." | "ART should comfort the disturbed, and disturb the comfortable."
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2015, 06:53:07 am »
Perhaps, a solution would be adding a new wiki-page with canon movie sentences by Pawl. Hmmm... :-\

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2015, 07:28:34 am »
Nìprrte’ ;)

As far as I understand it, it was the original line that he had to translate and the one BD extra that Prrton hinted at was the original script while the actors were still practicing. What’s in the film is correct but just shortened.

I think it will be sufficient to add this to the canon. I wouldn’t change the movie lines.

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2015, 07:50:06 am »

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Offline Eana Unil

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2015, 08:10:35 am »
Kosman  :)

"Kifkeyl oeti fneyku." | "ART should comfort the disturbed, and disturb the comfortable."
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2015, 10:39:51 am »
So we've got two new interesting words :D

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2015, 11:39:41 am »
Txantsan :D Fpìl oel futa oel tìng karmat ngaru ma Plumps! :)

Two new interesting and usselful words are alway good.

So to make myself sure, sänume sivin. has same ral as karvtr. but only oposite transitivity, kefyak?
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Offline Toliman

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2015, 11:46:46 am »
So we've got two new interesting words :D
Txantsan  :D

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2015, 01:05:35 pm »
Very good, Plumps! Asking the question is the only way to get answers :) But, hmm, I see some problems:
The line for sänume si I gave was:

Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng.
My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.
I think correct translations is a little different, although meaning doesn't suffer too much:
My daughter, you must teach him our way to speak and walk as we do. Or more literally: My daughter, related to our way, you must teach him to speak and walk as we do.
But I remember, that in movie was said : ....fte tsivun pilvlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng. That <ilv> is evidently mistake, while <iv> is ok.

Quote
from the movie line page

So the line from the pseudo-canon bit should be:

Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!

 :D That’s it. Over and out ;)
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

It's question whether to use fte/fteke, IMO both is possible and meaning doesn't change. I tend to use fteke, as Paul guessed finally, but it looks more like academic discussion or matter of feeling.
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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2015, 01:39:22 pm »
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

It's question whether to use fte/fteke, IMO both is possible and meaning doesn't change. I tend to use fteke, as Paul guessed finally, but it looks more like academic discussion or matter of feeling.
Point 2 looks weird to me, ziva'u would need ke because of kea, or zenke take care of it?.

As for the question where to place ke, there are some examples that shows that ke is before the modal verb.

Sawtuteri ronsemfkeykit ke tsun kawtu tslivam.
‘No one can understand the state of mind of the Sky People.’
http://naviteri.org/2011/04/yafkeykiri-plltxe-frapo-everyone-talks-about-the-weather/

Nga ke zene kivä. or Ke zene nga kivä.
‘It’s not necessary/obligatory that you go.’
http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%e2%80%99a%e2%80%99awa-li%e2%80%99fyavi-amip%e2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/

Waweti ke tsun fko ralpiveng.
‘One can’t explain (or: put into words) wawe.’
http://naviteri.org/2011/05/some-miscellaneous-vocabulary/

And some many more such example with ke + modal coonstructions.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 01:47:48 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2015, 02:27:49 pm »
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

It's question whether to use fte/fteke, IMO both is possible and meaning doesn't change. I tend to use fteke, as Paul guessed finally, but it looks more like academic discussion or matter of feeling.
Point 2 looks weird to me, ziva'u would need ke because of kea, or zenke take care of it?.
Why? According next part, ke goes in front of modal verb, but zenke is negated verb itself, so IMO it takes role of negated modal verb.
Quote
As for the question where to place ke, there are some examples that shows that ke is before the modal verb.

Sawtuteri ronsemfkeykit ke tsun kawtu tslivam.
‘No one can understand the state of mind of the Sky People.’
http://naviteri.org/2011/04/yafkeykiri-plltxe-frapo-everyone-talks-about-the-weather/

Nga ke zene kivä. or Ke zene nga kivä.
‘It’s not necessary/obligatory that you go.’
http://naviteri.org/2011/04/%e2%80%99a%e2%80%99awa-li%e2%80%99fyavi-amip%e2%80%94a-few-new-expressions/

Waweti ke tsun fko ralpiveng.
‘One can’t explain (or: put into words) wawe.’
http://naviteri.org/2011/05/some-miscellaneous-vocabulary/

And some many more such example with ke + modal coonstructions.
all this makes original example incorrect because of negation after modal verb. Hmmmm......
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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2015, 02:40:19 pm »
Txantsan :D Fpìl oel futa oel tìng karmat ngaru ma Plumps! :)

Irayo nìtxan. Slä lu oe fìpo nì’aw a munge ’upxaret ;)

So to make myself sure, sänume sivin. has same ral as karvtr. but only oposite transitivity, kefyak?

Basically, yes.
I understand sänume si more as “instruct, give instruction”

Very good, Plumps! Asking the question is the only way to get answers :) But, hmm, I see some problems:
The line for sänume si I gave was:

Ma ’ite, awngeyä fya’ori zene nga sänume sivi poru fte tsivun pivlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng.
My daughter, you will teach him our way to speak and walk as we do.
I think correct translations is a little different, although meaning doesn't suffer too much:
My daughter, you must teach him our way to speak and walk as we do. Or more literally: My daughter, related to our way, you must teach him to speak and walk as we do.
But I remember, that in movie was said : ....fte tsivun pilvlltxe sì tivìran nìayoeng. That <ilv> is evidently mistake, while <iv> is ok.

I took that exactly from the movie line quote. I haven’t seen the film in a while but that’s what the subtitle says… Translations can vary but of course you’re right, a more literal translation is the one you gave.

I was never convinced about the ‹ilv›. As often as I hear Mo’at speak it, I cannot hear ‹ilv›. Paul is usually very thorough with that. If it had been ‹ilv› he would have corrected it in my mail.

Quote
Poltxe oe san zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng fte po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
I have said no dreamwalker will come here to offend our home!

 :D That’s it. Over and out ;)
This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

No, I haven’t. But I agree with you… If I were to translate that, I would have used ke zene kea uniltìranyu… or zenke as well. Maybe modal constructs are more flexible than we thought.

I tend to understand the line and don’t have that much of a problem with it as to say straight away that it’s wrong.

We already had a long discussion about multiple negation on another part of the forum, if I remember correctly. I gathered from that that Na’vi even does it differently than languages that have double negation.

I may be in the minority here but I would say for extra emphasis that even ke zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng could be used. Others my disagree ;)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 05:55:49 am by Plumps »

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2015, 03:05:27 pm »
I took that exactly from the movie line quote. I haven’t seen the film in a while but that’s what the subtitle says… Translations can vary but of course you’re right, a more literal translation is the one you gave.

I was never convinced about the ‹ilv›. As often as I hear Mo’at speak it, I cannot hear ‹ilv›. Paul is usually very thorough with that. If it had been ‹ilv› he would have corrected it in my mail.
Well, it can be problem of dubbing. I'll look at that part again, but I remember I could hear it very clearly.
Quote

This example raises question, how negation with modal construction works. Have you discussed it with Paul? Where ke goes, in front of modal verb or controlled verb? Here situation is more complicated by zene, but I'd personally expect this (it's hell this English with single negation!!):

Poltxe oe san zenke kea uniltìranyu ziva’u fìtseng fte(ke) po kelkur zoplo sivi sìk.
1. I've said: Any dreamwalker must not come here to offend our home.
2. I've said: No dreamwalker is allowed to come here in order to not offend our home.

No, I haven’t. But I agree with you… If I were to translate that, I would have used ke zene kea uniltìranyu… or zenke as well. Maybe modal constructs are more flexible than we thought.

I tend to understand the line and don’t have that much of a problem with it as to say straight away that it’s wrong.

We already had a long discussion about multiple negation on another part of the forum, if I remember correctly. I gathered from that that Na’vi even does it differently than languages who have double negation.

I may be in the minority here but I would say for extra emphasis that even ke zene kea uniltìranyu ke ziva’u fìtseng could be used. Others my disagree ;)
ke zene (don't have to) and zenke (must not) are not interchangeable (I hope i understand there two correctly), so IMO zenke is the only option. Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.
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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 03:10:16 pm »
ke zene (don't have to) and zenke (must not) are not interchangeable (I hope i understand there two correctly), so IMO zenke is the only option. Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.

’ä’ … ngaru tìyawr kezemplltxe ;)

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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2015, 02:35:06 pm »
Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.
I did so and hope to get answer as small Christmas present :)
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Re: Little confirmation on “teach” and “insult”
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2015, 03:00:15 pm »
Ok, I think I'll write some message to Paul too, this area is quite interesting.
I did so and hope to get answer as small Christmas present :)

It looks like negation could work multiple ways with modals. Whatever answer you get should be interesting!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro eylan.falulukana@gmail.com

 

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