Author Topic: location of the vocative  (Read 672 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline wm.annis

  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3111
  • Karma: 144
  • Translate the meaning, not the words!
location of the vocative
« on: February 26, 2018, 09:01:31 pm »
There was some discussion on Discord about the legal positions of the vocative in a larger clause (hard to find canon examples, actually). So I asked Paul about this (Tirea Aean providing some of the examples):

Quote
When you have a polar question ending in srak, can it
be followed by a vocative, or would the vocative be
before the srak?

    Ngaru lu fpom srak, ma <name>?  (etc.)

My guess is that's just fine, given how vocatives are, but
some would appreciate an official declaration.

And then there's:

    1. Ma <name>, nga plltxe nìltsan.
    2. Nga, ma <name>, plltxe nìltsan.
    3. Nga plltxe, ma <name> nìltsan.

That is, can a vocative intrude anywhere, as a stylistic
thing?

Paul's reply
Quote from: Karyu Pawl
Answers are: yes, yes, yes, and yes. All those forms are fine. Vocatives SHOULD follow srak, but 1, 2, and 3 are fine.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9980
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: location of the vocative
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2018, 11:14:55 am »
Nice. Irayo! :D

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6230
  • Karma: 224
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: location of the vocative
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2018, 02:54:34 pm »
Indeed. Nice confirmation :)

Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5502
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Re: location of the vocative
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2018, 02:23:15 pm »
Good to know this. First part (with srak) is clear and it works the same way as for example in Czech (vocative can go also first in sentence, IMO same as in English, but meaning can be a little different:
Are you well, John? - like How are you/How do you do?, general question to ask about John's state
John, are you well? - you look sick, don't you need any help?? That's probably why Paul moves vocative behind srak).

In second part is missing version with vocative at the end.
4. Nga plltxe nìltsan,  ma <name>.
Here all versions have the same meaning and seems that's just speaker's decision, which one to use. However option 3 looks very uncommon (TBH I'd say even incorrect) and hardly used in real life.
Also option 2 seems less common than 1+4.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tirea Aean

  • The Blue One
  • Olo'eyktan Anawm
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9980
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 243
  • Oeri ran lu srung
    • Tirea Aean
Re: location of the vocative
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2018, 11:38:29 pm »
In second part is missing version with vocative at the end.
4. Nga plltxe nìltsan,  ma <name>.

I pretty much asked the stuff found in OP in the Discord. I excluded that #4 from my pondering, because it's obvious that this #4. is correct. We say stuff like this all the time, a regular sentence with vocative at the end. (although, with that logic, I have no idea why I left in #1 the most common form ever, but left out #4. meh. hrh)

Quote
Here all versions have the same meaning and seems that's just speaker's decision, which one to use. However option 3 looks very uncommon (TBH I'd say even incorrect) and hardly used in real life.
Also option 2 seems less common than 1+4.
Yes, those were my initial impressions too, but as we see confirmed here, none of these are incorrect.

I would have thought #3 is 1% acceptable, but lo and behold, it's apparently just as acceptable as the others. Honestly though, the chances of any of us using that weird word order is probably 1% anyway.
#1 and #4 are already by far the most commonly used forms.

kelku ikranä a hawnventi yom podcast (na'vi-only): https://bit.ly/kelkuikranä
Learn Na'vi at Mo'ara Discord: https://discord.gg/WF6qcmv

Offline Vawmataw

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 6636
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 103
Re: location of the vocative
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2018, 06:41:00 am »
The Teacher hath spoken.

Irayo ma wm.annis!
Fmawn Ta 'Rrta - News every weekend IN NA'VI ONLY (Discord)
Kelutral.fr editor

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.18 | SMF © 2021, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, LightStorm Entertainment or The Walt Disney Company.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi