Author Topic: <asy> with ke and nga  (Read 1299 times)

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Offline roger

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<asy> with ke and nga
« on: March 29, 2010, 01:39:37 am »
On one of the posts, s.o. asked what it would mean to use the intentional future with "you": you intend to go, or I intend you to go? Turns out it's the latter. And they also asked about the scope of the negative.

Quote from: Frommer
With the negative added, it's a matter of scope: Is it (a) INTEND [NEG V] or (b) NEG [INTEND V]?

So far I've used the det. fut. only as (a). Examples from the video-game dialog:

Tafral ke lìsyek oel geyä keye'ugit.
'Therefore I will not heed your insanity.'

Ayoe ke wasyem.
'We will not fight.'

Ke zasyup lì'Ona ne kxutu a mìfa fu a wrrpa.
'The l'Ona will not perish to the enemy within or the enemy without.'
[not decided whether (b) should be allowed]
Quote
As for the second person examples, the det. fut. without anything else should indicate the intention of the speaker (since you can't get inside someone's head to assess their determination): Ga kasyä shd. be: I am determined that you will go. (Alternatively, it could be the case that the determinative is only used with the 1st person--but that would eliminate some useful sentences.)*

I like your idea of using the evidential with the determinative for the other reading. In the same way, when we use experiential expressions with other than the 1st person, we're implying a "seems" or "appears," right? So "I'm tired" is straightforward, but "You're tired" is odd unless it means "I perceive you as tired (although I can't be sure if that's true)" or "You seem/appear to be tired."

In other words, "You shall not pass!" (the question in the post) would be s.t. like ga ke ftasyem!

And if I'm reading this right, it would be ungrammatical (or at least intellectually dishonest) to say ga 'efu geyn for "you are tired"; one should say instead ga 'efacu geyn. Similarly, if he decides to go with this, the way to say "you're determined to go" would be ga kasyacä. (I would assume you could leave out the evidential in either if you're in caheylu!)

Capitalization suggests a new prefix in "lì'Ona", though that might simply be a unitary name.

*Is the "lì'Ona" example then actually in 1st person, with the speaker speaking for all, rather than expressing intention for a 3rd party?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 03:58:46 am by roger »

Offline Plumps

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2010, 03:00:34 am »
Thanks for sharing!

Although I'm all for the little nuances in a language ... right now I can only concentrate on two words that appear to be new...
ngeyn adj. = tired
kxutu n. = enemy

eyawr lu mefo srak?

Honestly, but maybe that's due to my non-native English background, I can't quite see the difference between the given examples.
Is it suggested then, that the lì'Ona example should add an additional ‹ats› in zup to indicate that the speaker is really just conjecturing?

Offline roger

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2010, 03:12:18 am »
Oops, yeah, I shouldn't have used ngeyn; I was just translating F's examples.

I would imagine that if you were to use <ats> in zup, you'd be saying that it appears that you intend, rather than just that you intend. Normally we're aware of our own intentions.

The idea is that I can say that I am tired, because I know how I feel. I can ask you if you are tired, because you know how you feel. But it makes no more sense for me to tell you that you are tired, than it does to ask you if I am tired. We have this in English: "You look tired. Why don't you lie down?" It would be rather odd to tell s.o. "You're tired. Go lie down." The "look" would be translated with <ats>. The question then would be if its grammatically or culturally acceptable to say "S/he's tired", or if we're required to say "S/he looks tired" with the <ats>. (Unless maybe it's our horse we're talking about, and we're in tsaheylu, so we know first-hand that s/he's tired.)
« Last Edit: March 29, 2010, 03:19:35 am by roger »

Offline Plumps

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2010, 03:24:32 am »
You can still change it ;) Nobody else noticed :)

Alright, I get the ‹ats› and of course, it's logical.

Hmm, I don't understand what the
Quote
[not decided whether the 2nd reading should be allowed]
means or what you are referring to...
Sorry, for being a skxawng with that ... maybe it's too early :P but of course, I want to comprehend these aspects of the language

Offline pbhead

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2010, 09:18:43 am »
Is he dropping the n in "ng"? I guess thats ok, since the only time g appears is ng...

just kinda intresting.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2010, 09:21:44 am »
Updated lì'Ona, but didn't add the two words, because of your hesitance.

Thanks roj.

Offline roger

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2010, 09:23:36 am »
Is he dropping the n in "ng"? I guess thats ok, since the only time g appears is ng...

just kinda intresting.

He's always prefered to use 'g' for 'ng' and 'c' for 'ts' (one letter per sound apart from 'x'), but used the latter for the film script to make it more accessible to the actors. Some of us write to him in this system, and he responds in kind.

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: <asy> with ke and nga
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2010, 10:10:10 am »
Awesome, glad to have that answered.

 

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