Author Topic: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative  (Read 2924 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« on: April 27, 2010, 01:55:16 am »
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".


I also ran the transcription we had of Jake's speech to see how close we were and got a few corrections there.  The entirety of what was in the movie below.

fpole’ sawtutel ’upxaret
ayoeri tsat new
tsun mivunge.
slä awngal 'upxaret fpìye' for.
kämakto nìwin, ayngati spivule hufwel
ayolo'ru alahe peng ziva'u.
for peng syeraw Toruk Makto
tswayon set oehu
ma smukan, ma smuke!
sawtuter wìyintxu ayoeng
ke tsun fo fìkem sivi
fìtsenge... l(u) awngeyä!


For the most part, various attempts to transcribe it all got some bits right and some bits wrong and nearly everything had been correctly transcribed in one form or another.  The only two surprises there are the "lu" in the final line (I mean it makes sense, but I don't think I've seen anyone suggest that it is there.  The other is the "ayoeri tsat new".  It really...  doesn't make any sense.  But the reason is the whole direct quote thing of Na'vi...  That is a translation of something like "The sky people have sent us a message, 'We can take whatever we want and nobody can stop us'".  But due to time constraints it got stripped down considerably, including removing the "san".

Edit: Forgot to add, he has been quite busy but hopes that this weekend will be slow enough that he can start getting to the list of questions I sent him for the "Combining our Efforts II".

Edit II: Before it gets too far into common use, I figured I'd get a few clarifications.  As has been suspected, -ya is ONLY for "singular" nouns that denote a group.  So Na'viya of course, or tsamponguya are fine.  Frapoya is a borderline case, but only because it is a pronoun.  However it would be acceptable.  (As an implication from that, I am guessing we can take that to mean if you're saying something to everyone, you can say "Frapoya", "ma frapo" or just "frapo" and all are acceptable.)  Nouns that are only a group by nature of being plural would just get "ma".  (So *suteya would never be correct.)  And finally, -ya is never required, you can always use the normal "ma" vocative instead.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 09:31:41 pm by omängum fra'uti »
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6108
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 02:04:42 am »
Interesting!
I like how these things enter the language … and that certain speech patterns (some may call it errors :P ) suddenly get meaning :D

So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)


fpole’ sawtutel ’upxaret
ayoeri tsat new
tsun mivunge.
slä awngal 'upxaret fpìye' for.
kämakto nìwin, ayngati spivule hufwel
ayolo'ru alahe peng ziva'u.
for peng syeraw Toruk Makto
tswayon set oehu
ma smukan, ma smuke!
sawtute wìyintxu awngal
ke tsun fo fìkem sivi
fìtsenge... l(u) awngeyä!

I know at least meylan who are not going to like that :P

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 02:08:54 am »
Interesting things:

peng used syntactically like a modal "peng ziva'u" whereas before we'd have thought a fte would be needed srak?
sawtute (as an object) being unmarked by an accusative (sawtute wìyintxu awngal)
Genitives used predicatively, possibly could be used generally like mine or yours (fìtsenge lu awngeyä)

So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 12:33:27 pm by kemeoauniaea (tìkawngä mungeyu) »
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6108
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 02:11:46 am »
So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.

Fair enough, then I misunderstood the term »collective« :(

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 02:20:47 am »
Interesting things:

peng used modally "peng ziva'u" whereas before we'd have thought a fte would be needed srak?
sawtute (as an object) being unmarked by an accusative (sawtute wìyintxu awngal)
Genitives used predicatively, possibly could be used generally like mine or yours (fìtsenge lu awngeyä)
Ack!  Thanks for catching the wìyintxu line, that was my copy error.  It should be sawtuter wìyingtxu ayoeng, I forgot to edit that line.

I wouldn't say that "peng ziva'u" is being used modally there...  To the best of my knowledge "tell" is not a modal in any Language.  (Modality is a specific meaning, of which "tell" does not fit.)  But yes, it is indeed being used in the same syntactic manner.  I believe we've seen a similar construct on a non-modal one other time but I can't recall where.  And that was not something created by compressed time of the movie.

On your last point, we also have "Na'viyä luyu hapxì".

So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.
Right, the impression I get from his wording is that it is only for nouns that are innately groups...  Like Na'vi (The people), pongu (Group/party) & derivatives, and olo' (clan).  Not sure if that extends to names of those as well (ma Omatikaya or Omatikayaya)  However he did not give any specific examples besides the Na'viya from which the rule was derived.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline roger

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 724
  • Karma: 22
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 02:31:37 am »
Ack!  Thanks for catching the wìyintxu line, that was my copy error.  It should be sawtuter wìyingtxu ayoeng, I forgot to edit that line.

So, sawtute takes the short dative? So far we've only seen that on pronouns.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: 40
  • Nume ralit lì'fyayä ulte nga tayìran Eywahu.
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 03:00:52 am »
Do you know if -ya is required for collective nouns, or just an alternative formulation? E.g. is ma Na'vi valid as well?
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline omängum fra'uti

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3804
  • Karma: 127
  • Na'vi's first grammar nazi
    • Pronounced Na'vi words
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 04:00:24 am »
I did not ask any follow up questions, though a few are of course raised.  He seems busy at the moment so I figured it could wait.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 240
  • Swirä letxon
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 08:09:19 am »
Tewti! Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan. Kawkrr oe ke tsamun tslilvam tsalì'ut a san Na'viya :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Swoka Swizaw

  • Guest
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 09:14:05 am »
So, is this definition a post-hoc addition?

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 12:37:11 pm »
Interesting things:

peng used modally "peng ziva'u" whereas before we'd have thought a fte would be needed srak?
sawtute (as an object) being unmarked by an accusative (sawtute wìyintxu awngal)
Genitives used predicatively, possibly could be used generally like mine or yours (fìtsenge lu awngeyä)
Ack!  Thanks for catching the wìyintxu line, that was my copy error.  It should be sawtuter wìyingtxu ayoeng, I forgot to edit that line.

I wouldn't say that "peng ziva'u" is being used modally there...  To the best of my knowledge "tell" is not a modal in any Language.  (Modality is a specific meaning, of which "tell" does not fit.)  But yes, it is indeed being used in the same syntactic manner.  I believe we've seen a similar construct on a non-modal one other time but I can't recall where.  And that was not something created by compressed time of the movie.

On your last point, we also have "Na'viyä luyu hapxì".

So that means that I could also say smuktuya for ma smukan sì smuke? – *raising my inner Vulcan brow* Fascinating! ;)

I'd say not, Omängum says that -ya is for collective nouns whilst skumtu is just a plural. For things like olo' or na'vi it works but I don't we have many collective nouns as of yet.
Right, the impression I get from his wording is that it is only for nouns that are innately groups...  Like Na'vi (The people), pongu (Group/party) & derivatives, and olo' (clan).  Not sure if that extends to names of those as well (ma Omatikaya or Omatikayaya)  However he did not give any specific examples besides the Na'viya from which the rule was derived.

1. ok, I misunderstood modal then. It's still interesting to note after we got told that we'd been using it inappropriately. I hadn't remembered the na'viyä luyu hapxì, I'd thought it was luyu na'viyä hapxì, that shows how useless my memory is.  ::)

2. I'd imagine it would work for names like omatikaya if it works for collective nouns. Of course, that's just a guess.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 07:45:43 pm »
So... what is the difference between spule and munge?
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Karma: 46
  • Watch AVATAR, or I'll find you. ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 07:57:32 pm »
I'm glad that we finally got -ya out of the way, it bugged me so much.  :D

spule is propel and munge is take/bring
Naruto Shippuden Episode 166: Confession
                                    Watch it, Love it, Live it

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2010, 08:53:30 pm »
I'm glad that we finally got -ya out of the way, it bugged me so much.  :D

spule is propel and munge is take/bring

Okay.  I had seen them both glossed as "carry" at some point; i guess i see the difference.  Irayo.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Prrton

  • Eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2799
  • Karma: 105
  • Rutxe, fmivi. Ftxey fra'u eyawr fuke, ke tsranten.
    • Pìlok leNa'vi a ro MaSempul.org
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2010, 10:41:08 pm »
Do you know if -ya is required for collective nouns, or just an alternative formulation? E.g. is ma Na'vi valid as well?

  Trr lefpom, ma Amerika!

«Amerika» is used as a collective noun to "call out to" all of the US.

Offline Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 1902
  • Karma: 46
  • Watch AVATAR, or I'll find you. ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2010, 10:47:05 pm »
Depending on how recently he made the rule, assuming very recently, it could change. Personally -ya seems to flow better rather than ma and it's nice to have a distinction between the two, it never really felt right saying ma Amerika (at least to me)

Trr lefpom learnnaviya!
Naruto Shippuden Episode 166: Confession
                                    Watch it, Love it, Live it

Offline Prrton

  • Eyktan
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 2799
  • Karma: 105
  • Rutxe, fmivi. Ftxey fra'u eyawr fuke, ke tsranten.
    • Pìlok leNa'vi a ro MaSempul.org
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2010, 10:56:35 pm »

I wouldn't say that "peng ziva'u" is being used modally there...  To the best of my knowledge "tell" is not a modal in any Language.  (Modality is a specific meaning, of which "tell" does not fit.)  But yes, it is indeed being used in the same syntactic manner.  I believe we've seen a similar construct on a non-modal one other time but I can't recall where.  And that was not something created by compressed time of the movie.

This «peng ziva'u» and the «for peng syeraw Toruk Makto» is just san-dropping, right? That «ziva'u» in the subjunctive is just a polite request/command.

If/when tsnì and fte are dropped (legally or not), other things can LOOK like real modals too, though, even though the underlying logic of the sentence is different.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: 40
  • Nume ralit lì'fyayä ulte nga tayìran Eywahu.
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2010, 11:00:16 pm »
Do you know if -ya is required for collective nouns, or just an alternative formulation? E.g. is ma Na'vi valid as well?

  Trr lefpom, ma Amerika!

«Amerika» is used as a collective noun to "call out to" all of the US.

Txantsana menari, ma Prrton.  Oe irayo seiyi ngar.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline tsrräfkxätu

  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
  • Karma: 28
  • pic by chikinrise.deviantart.com (cropped)
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2010, 04:59:48 am »
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then maweya smukan (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...
párolt zöldség — muntxa fkxen  

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Na'viya - the OTHER vocative
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2010, 10:48:56 am »
No, that's not a typo of Na'viyä, that is a special vocative particle -ya (Always a suffix), used with collective nouns like Na'vi.  (Presumably then also "Tsamponguya" for example - though I have no other "official" examples.)

So the question of what Neytiri says can be laid to rest.  She is saying, exactly as the subtitle says, "Calm, people, camp" with the -ya vocative addressing "the people".

Whoa! That's totally weird! Is this coming from an email or something? I'm asking because Ma oeyä Na’viya, [lu] mawey! seems to be double marked for vocative, and don't tell me it's not ma oeyä in the first part because then maweya smukan (in addressing the dieing nantang) makes no sense. Of course such double marking could be allowed no problem, just wondering...

Except the vocative isn't required for addressing creatures so maweya tsmukan to a nantang makes perfect sense.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi