Author Topic: Combining our efforts  (Read 6929 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #160 on: February 28, 2010, 05:45:46 pm »
I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...
I'm not so sure...  How many times have you used "fì'ul a" in Na'vi?  I don't think I ever have.

Until now, never. :)
In fact, it took a while to come up with an example sentence that worked, so I'm also guessing that it doesn't occur much. I'm just saying that if it does, that particular contraction would not raise my eyebrows.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline NeotrekkerZ

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: 40
  • Nume ralit lì'fyayä ulte nga tayìran Eywahu.
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #161 on: March 01, 2010, 01:10:11 am »
So to make sure I understand this, in the following Frommer sentence
Quote
Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.

He uses fwa and not tsnì because he is essentially saying "it fills me" where that entire phrase functions as a direct object.  I'm not sure if it's possible to create a particular sentence with teya si where I would use tsnì, but if I could, what follows it would have to be a clause that could function as an independent sentence. 

Correct?
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #162 on: March 01, 2010, 02:11:45 am »
So you're basically saying that fwa is not the subjective counterpart to futa, except when it is? ;)

I would not be at all surprised to find *fula in there if the clause order were reversed...

As for tsnì also being used with intransitive verbs, the syntactic environment is different there. In sentences with things like fpìl futa ... or lu fwa ..., fì'u is acting as either the direct object or intransitive subject of the main verb. In a sentence like oe ätxäle si tsnì ..., the main verb already has a subject, and due to its being intrinsically intransitive (Jan 21), it cannot have an accusative object. In the previous two cases the subordinate clause functions attributively to define fì'u, which in turn takes on the role as one of the core arguments of the main verb, but in the last case the SC lacks this explicit connection for the aforementioned reason -- and that's what tsnì is for.

Tsnì is probably the predicative equivalent, not the intransitive equivalent.
I don't follow this. Explain, please?

1. Essentially. I was just pointing out that calling it the subjective counterpart can be misleading.

2. It's unlikely to have been contracted given how rarely it's used. I'd expect it to stay as fì'ul a

3. see 4.

4. It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate. If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #163 on: March 01, 2010, 03:17:58 am »
So to make sure I understand this, in the following Frommer sentence
Quote
Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.

He uses fwa and not tsnì because he is essentially saying "it fills me" where that entire phrase functions as a direct object.  I'm not sure if it's possible to create a particular sentence with teya si where I would use tsnì, but if I could, what follows it would have to be a clause that could function as an independent sentence. 

Correct?

Intransitive subject, not direct object:

Fì'u a sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si

The independent clause is fì'u oeru teya si this thing fills me (with joy), and the subordinate clause defines the subject of this clause by way of a. It seems to me that the structure of the teya si idiom is always "X fills me", and not "[it] fills me that X", where you would need a dummy subject; therefore no tsnì.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #164 on: March 01, 2010, 03:38:25 am »
If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.

Of course, but what does this have to do with sentences like these?

Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron

It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate.

I honestly cannot see how you could come to this conclusion.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Keylstxatsmen

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 478
  • Karma: 20
    • Letrra Na'vi
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #165 on: March 01, 2010, 04:01:53 am »
But what about fwa then?

I think fwa vs tsnì is on a similar level to na vs pxel.

Fwa (fì'u a) is the subjective counterpart to futa (fì'ut a), so it's not used in the same way.

Law lu oeru fwa nga mì reltseo nolume nìtxan
It's clear to me that you've learnt much in visual art
("This thing is clear to me, namely that ...")

Fpìrmìl oel futa aynga natsew tsive’a fi’ut
I was just thinking that you'd want to see this
("I was just thinking this thing, namely that ...")

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron
(I) request to have the Dream Hunt
("I request thus: ...")

So, to sum up: futa acts as the object of the primary verb (which must be transitive), fwa acts as the subject of the primary verb (which must not be transitive), and tsnì connects a subordinate clause to an intransitive primary verb. I think someone suggested the derivation tsa+: "that-ly", "thus".

Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang. 

or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences?  [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Skyinou

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 513
  • Karma: 20
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #166 on: March 01, 2010, 05:17:42 am »
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang. 
With lu or slu, there is like two subject.
"oe lu skxawng" with free word order is either "i'm a moron" or "a moron is me", so in your two examples "fwa" act as the subject + "a".
Let's rock with The Tanners!

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #167 on: March 01, 2010, 09:09:06 am »
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

-Keyl

I love you a little <3
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 3519
  • Karma: 65
  • po a ke lu wew
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #168 on: March 01, 2010, 09:17:50 am »
If I say "He is a hunter", hunter is a predicative noun; if I say "you seem honest" honest is a predicative adjective; if I say "it seems that you are strong" then "that you are strong" is a predicative phrase, that said, in this case I'd use an inferential in lu instead but the point stands.

Of course, but what does this have to do with sentences like these?

Oe sìlpey tsnì poanìl tskot tìyevìng poer

Ätxäle si tsnì livu oheru Uniltaron

It essentially the "non-accusative object" you described in 3. is called a predicate.

I honestly cannot see how you could come to this conclusion.

1. I was explaining how to use tsnì treating it as a predicate.

2. Just reread the wikipedia page and it turns out that I'm using it in the traditional sense which may be causing the conclusion. Predicatives often behave like objects (e.g. with word order in non-free word order languages) when used with intransitive verbs.

Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang. 

or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences?  [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?

I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.

It is now my opinion that tsnì is an just a function word used in certain sentences.

I mean, fwa can, as Keyl rightly points out, be used predicatively as well as subjectively but only in intransitive verbs. Futa is accusative and fì'ul a is subjective in transitive verbs. There are no gaps and so tsnì cannot be part of this set of words.

OOF tsnì is only attested with sìlpey and ätxäle si. I propose that these are irregular formations.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

Offline Keylstxatsmen

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 478
  • Karma: 20
    • Letrra Na'vi
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #169 on: March 01, 2010, 10:41:51 am »
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.  
With lu or slu, there is like two subject.
"oe lu skxawng" with free word order is either "i'm a moron" or "a moron is me", so in your two examples "fwa" act as the subject + "a".

I can't see how slu has two subjects, one has to be suboridante to the other or how would you sort out this:

A parrot became my friend != My friend became a parrot.


I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.

I think tsnì is needed in the intransitive sentence because there is no "fì'u" to attach the "a" to. I always thought that the fì'u couldn't be just thrown into a sentence where it doesn't have a place to legally live, just like you can't use the word "it" in the predacate of the sentence "I sleep".  

-Keyl
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 10:43:29 am by Keylstxatsmen »
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #170 on: March 01, 2010, 12:03:27 pm »
Not to bring this argument back around to the original post but fwa doesn't only act as the subject of primary verb, I don't think.  It is fi’u + a, it should be able to go anywhere fi’u goes.  Like:

I will become the thing that destroys our clan.
Oe slayu fwa awngeyä olo'it ska'a.

An arrow is what killed my father.
Swizaw lu fwa oeyä sempulit tspamang.  

or non-primary verb:
I want to have this thing that is yours. (Imagine a Na'vi warrior holding an empty glass coke bottle)
Oe new livu oeru fwa lu ngaru.

Probably not the best examples, but would "fwa" be the subject of the primary verb in any of these sentences?  [IANAL] Or do you think we should use fì'u a in these cases?

That's a very valid point.

Neytiriyä tìyawn lu fwa (tsat) Tsu'teyìl new
Neytiri's love is that which Tsu'tey wants

The question then becomes to what extent the Na'vi would construct such utterances, and to what extent (if any) fwa is considered lexicalized or restricted to certain types of sentences. While it is true that we have only seen it in non-predicative situations so far, there should be no a priori reason to presume that it could not work in that way. As far as that goes, I stand corrected.

I mean, fwa can, as Keyl rightly points out, be used predicatively as well as subjectively but only in intransitive verbs. Futa is accusative and fì'ul a is subjective in transitive verbs. There are no gaps and so tsnì cannot be part of this set of words.

Precisely. However:

I was thinking this after I posted and have now come to the conclusion that thinking of tsnì as a seperate word or as any sort of equivalent to futa is fruitless.
I think tsnì is needed in the intransitive sentence because there is no "fì'u" to attach the "a" to. I always thought that the fì'u couldn't be just thrown into a sentence where it doesn't have a place to legally live, just like you can't use the word "it" in the predacate of the sentence "I sleep".  

That's just it: when any variant of fì'u cannot be inserted, but there should still be a connection between the primary verb and a secondary clause, tsnì can be the way to go. To exemplify:

Oel new futa kivä ne kelku
I want to go home

Oel sìlpey futa ayoe kìyevä ne kelku ye'rìn
Oe sìlpey tsnì ayoe kìyevä ne kelku ye'rìn
I hope that we'll go home soon

In this sense (and this sense only), I think tsnì could be thought of as corresponding to futa.

OOF tsnì is only attested with sìlpey and ätxäle si. I propose that these are irregular formations.

Let me throw out some other formations and see what happens:

Oe txopu si tsnì fkol Kelutralit skiva'a
I'm afraid that Hometree might be destroyed

Oe tìng nari tsnì Eytukanìl tsperang yerikit
I observe Eytukan's killing a hexapede

Oe fmayi tsnì zong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan

Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters

Could any of those work? Why? Why not?
It may well be so that the group of verbs with which tsnì can be used is very (or even extremely) limited, and that we don't get to see or use it very often.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 12:15:35 pm by Lance R. Casey »

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Keylstxatsmen

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • *
  • Posts: 478
  • Karma: 20
    • Letrra Na'vi
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #171 on: March 01, 2010, 12:28:45 pm »
Oe fmayi tsnì zong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan

I think this is the only one that might not work, if only because I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly.  (add it to the list!)  Personally, I hope it is transitive, but if it is not I would say:

Oe fmayi fte (tsivun) zivong awngeyä olo'it
I will try to save our clan

Quote
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters

I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.

-Keyl

I love you a little <3

Haha, thanks, I'm just glad someone got the reference.  ;D
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #172 on: March 01, 2010, 12:35:15 pm »
I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly
Me neither! ;)

Quote
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
There is: (Jan 20)

Furia ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole', ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Kì'eyawn

  • Moderator Emeritus
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 1779
  • Karma: 32
  • Oeru syaw "tigermind" kop.
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #173 on: March 01, 2010, 12:40:52 pm »
I have no frelling clue how to use fmi correctly
Me neither! ;)

Quote
Oe kllfro' tsnì oeyä eveng slivu saronyu
It is my responsibility that my children become hunters
I was just thinking that *fura (or whatever "fì'ur + a" becomes, if anything) might be fun here... if there were such a thing.
There is: (Jan 20)

Furia ngal oeyä 'upxaret aysuteru fpole', ngaru irayo seiyi oe nìtxan

That's not the same thing.  Furia is a contraction of Fì'uri a; i think tsmukan Keyl is getting at Fì'ur(u) a--srake?
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Lance R. Casey

  • Eyktan
  • Ikran Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 948
  • se Sweden
  • Karma: 57
  • Man cenuva métim' andúnë?
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #174 on: March 01, 2010, 12:58:14 pm »
That's not the same thing.  Furia is a contraction of Fì'uri a; i think tsmukan Keyl is getting at Fì'ur(u) a--srake?

Ah! I did indeed misread that. Oeru txoa livu.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline NeotrekkerZ

  • Taronyu
  • ****
  • Posts: 688
  • Karma: 40
  • Nume ralit lì'fyayä ulte nga tayìran Eywahu.
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #175 on: March 01, 2010, 03:51:04 pm »
Quote
Intransitive subject, not direct object:

Yes, of course.  Had a "special" moment there. 
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 6110
  • Karma: 221
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Re: Combining our efforts
« Reply #176 on: March 06, 2010, 05:42:53 am »
A request to the mods

Can somebody please insert the discussion on fwa, futa and tsnì into the related thread? Makes it easier to find.
Very confusing to find that here - even if some of it is speculation and conjecture...

Irayo :)

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.15 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines
Privacy Policy
| XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi