Author Topic: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd  (Read 337 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9663
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 318
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
So, few days back, I have reminded Pawl about an old question regarding possibility of combination of <äp>/<eyk> +< us>/<awn>

Ayngar fì'u:
 :)


[...]
So, let's see:

As you know, äp + awn is impossible. There are then 4 possible combinations to consider:
 
äp + eyk
äp + us
eyk + awn
eyk + us
.

All 4 of these ARE possible, at least with certain verbs in certain situations. Here are some examples:

äp + eyk

There was an example in one of my blog posts, from April 30, 2015. It concerned the verb 'rrko 'roll.'

http://naviteri.org/2015/04/some-new-words-for-may-day/

And if you yourself are rolling—i.e., causing yourself to roll—use <eyk> along with the reflexive infix <äp>:

Tseyk ’äpeykamrrko äo utral a zolup fte hivifwo ftu aysre’ palulukanä.

‘Jake rolled under the fallen tree to escape from the thanator’s teeth.’

That is, Jake caused (<eyk>) himself (<äp>) to roll . . .

äp + us

You yourself gave a good examples of this combination in your first email a couple of years ago. You considered it ungrammatical in Na'vi, but actually, I think it's OK:

Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpusur.
'I see a self-washing animal.'
German: Ich sehe ein sich selbstwaschendes Tier.

The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!

My German isn't good enough to know whether or not the German version you've provided can have that meaning as well.

You also gave another example:

Lu oeru piak-säpusia sähena.
I have a self-opening container.
German: Ich habe einen (sich) selbstöffnenden Behälter.

This could also mean: 'I have a container (that is in the process of) opening itself.' Of course that meaning is a bit bizarre.

eyk + awn

A good example of this involves the verb zup 'fall.' As you know, the causative version of this, zeykup, means 'drop (deliberately).' So zeykawnup is the participle meaning 'dropped': rum azeykawnup, 'a (deliberately) dropped ball.'

eyk + us

As you pointed out, I had mentioned in a comment that zeykuso is a correct word. An example of its use might be: 'ewll azeykuso 'a healing plant'--that is, a plant with healing properties.

[...]

ta Pawl




I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us with <äp>/<eyk> would be possible too.
 :palulukan:
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 05:19:58 pm by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9663
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 318
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Quote from: Vawmataw on Today at 09:56:55 am
Quote
I've replied back also to clarify the question if tì+us would be possible too.
Valid via Horen 6.9.2.? ???
Yes, but I mean tì + us in eyk/äp words, of course. :)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 10:29:19 am by Tìtstewan »

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Kemaweyan

  • Eywatsyìp
  • ******
  • *
  • Posts: 14675
  • ua Ukraine
  • Karma: 239
  • Swirä letxon
Txantsana fmawn! Fìtxeleri oeyä fpìlfya sì tì'efu lamu teng nìwotx :D Irayo nìtxan, ma tsmukan! :D :D :D
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Vawmataw

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 5494
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 91
Quote
The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!
Yeah, it's a good question. The thing is that <us> is the gerund and the past participle.
To remove any ambiguity I would say:
Oel tse'a ioangit a yäp(er)ur.

Otherwise I think the context may sort out things, but in case of true ambiguity maybe <us> isn't the best choice.

Example:
Sngum rä'ä sivi. Tsatsengeri suteru smon hufwe atusul. The people of that place are familiar with the fast wind.
Nìfe' txolula a 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul. The fast winds displaces the badly built camps.
Tusula hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr. Due to the fast wind, we shouldn't fly today. (It's windy, or it's not right now but we shouldn't take risks.) If it's windy right now: Terul a hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 10:23:39 am by Vawmataw »

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9663
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 318
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Tstunwi, ma Kemaweyan! :)




-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Plumps

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5967
  • Karma: 213
  • ’Ivong Na’vi
    • Aylì'uä Ramunong (Pìlok)
Eltur tìtxen si…

Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpusur.
'I see a self-washing animal.'
German: Ich sehe ein sich selbstwaschendes Tier.

The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!

My German isn't good enough to know whether or not the German version you've provided can have that meaning as well.

I think it can.
But that’s the case with all active participles in German, same as in Na’vi tusarona palulukan can be rendered as “a hunting thanator” or “a thanator that hunts” (teraron a palulukan).


Lu oeru piak-säpusia sähena.
I have a self-opening container.
German: Ich habe einen (sich) selbstöffnenden Behälter.


eyk + us

As you pointed out, I had mentioned in a comment that zeykuso is a correct word. An example of its use might be: 'ewll azeykusup 'a healing plant'--that is, a plant with healing properties.

Surely he meant azeykuso ;)

Offline Tìtstewan

  • LearnNavi Zeykoyu
  • Toruk Makto
  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 9663
  • de Germany
  • Karma: 318
  • Ke lu oeru kea krr krrtalun!
    • My YouTube Channel
Lu oeru piak-säpusia sähena.
I have a self-opening container.
German: Ich habe einen (sich) selbstöffnenden Behälter.
Oh derp, I see what I did there. That example is actually two years old, and I haven't changed the original examples. :-[

eyk + us

As you pointed out, I had mentioned in a comment that zeykuso is a correct word. An example of its use might be: 'ewll azeykusup 'a healing plant'--that is, a plant with healing properties.

Surely he meant azeykuso ;)
*checks the email* I think, he had the previous word/sentence in mind when he wrote that example.


*fix the OP*

-| Dict-Na'vi.com | Na'viteri Files | FAQ | LM | Puk Pxaw 'Rrta | Kem si fu kem rä'ä si, ke lu tìfmi. |-

Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5391
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Otherwise I think the context may sort out things, but in case of true ambiguity maybe <us> isn't the best choice.

Example:
Sngum rä'ä sivi. Tsatsengeri suteru smon hufwe atusul. The people of that place are familiar with the fast wind.
Nìfe' txolula a 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul. The fast winds displaces the badly built camps.
Tusula hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr. Due to the fast wind, we shouldn't fly today. (It's windy, or it's not right now but we shouldn't take risks.) If it's windy right now: Terul a hufwetalun sweylu ke tswivayon fìtrr.
I think some of your examples are not correct, I'd prefer these modifications:
Nìfe' txawnula 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul. <ol> marks finished action, but in red part is missing object or subject - that's why passive participle is needed. Basic sentence is 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul - and txula part works as adjective describing 'awm. And there's no way how to change verb to adjective except us/awm - or subclause, so also this is possible:
Fkol nìfe' txolula a 'awmit 'ärìp hufwel atusul (IMHO better: 'Awmit a nìfe' fkol txolula 'ärìp hufwel atusul)

Sweylu has very specific usage - with txo or fwa, so you need to add it:
Sweylu txo ke tswivayon fìtrr ayoeng tusula hufwetalun.
or
Sweylu txo ke tswivayon fìtrr ayoeng taluna hufwe terul (set).
(compare with source)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Blue Elf

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • *
  • Posts: 5391
  • cz Czech Republic
  • Karma: 112
    • My attempt for blog
Eltur tìtxen si…

Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpusur.
'I see a self-washing animal.'
German: Ich sehe ein sich selbstwaschendes Tier.

The English translation, though, might be a little different: 'I see an animal (that is in the process of) washing itself.' That's a bit different from 'I see a self-washing animal.' The former sentence implies you're watching an animal that is in the process of washing itself; the latter typically means you're watching an animal that has the general characteristic of being able to wash itself, even though it may not be doing that at the present moment. Right now I think that both interpretations are OK in Na'vi, but I need to think about that some more. If you or anyone else has thoughts about this, I'd like to hear them!

My German isn't good enough to know whether or not the German version you've provided can have that meaning as well.

I think it can.
But that’s the case with all active participles in German, same as in Na’vi tusarona palulukan can be rendered as “a hunting thanator” or “a thanator that hunts” (teraron a palulukan).
But translations means the same:
Tusarona palululan lu lehrrap == Palulukan a teraron lu lehrrap. Both these mean, that thanator, which (currently) hunts, is dangerous.

IMHO some verbs with <us> can have two meanings, some only one:
ioang apuslltxe - animal, which (currently) speaks X animal, which has ability to speak
nantang afrusìp - biting dog (dog, which currently bites something), but not dog, which has ability to bite (all all dogs are able to bite (okay, maybe except too old :)))
tutan ahusahaw - sleeping man, not man with ability to sleeps (anyone can sleep....)
nari atsuse'a - sighted/seeing(?) eye X eye which can see. Well, you can say "every eye can see", but it can be used like:

Nari atsuse'a tse'a nì'ul -> Seeing eye see more (if you know how to see, you can see more; normal eye see just common things).
Just my ideas.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Vawmataw

  • Palulukan Makto
  • *****
  • *
  • Posts: 5494
  • nv Eywa'eveng
  • Karma: 91
@Blue Elf 'ä'! Irayo.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2016, 05:16:15 pm by Vawmataw »

Offline Wllìm

  • Omatikaya
  • ****
  • Posts: 497
  • nl Netherlands
  • Karma: 47
    • Wimiso (weptsenge oeyä)
Very nice to have this confirmed. Irayo ma Tìtstewan! :)
Ke lu oeru kea 'rrkotswo :D
Noun declension toolVerb infix tool •  Weather forecasts in Na'viKDE nìNa'viMy Na'vi blog

Seykxel sì nitram! Ngal rolun fì'upxaret aketsuktse'a! :D

 

Become LearnNavi's friend on Facebook Follow LearnNavi on Twitter! Watch LearnNavi's videos on YouTube

SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines | XHTML | RSS | WAP2 | Site Rules

LearnNavi is not affiliated with the official Avatar website,
James Cameron, or the Twentieth Century-Fox Film Corporation.
All trademarks and servicemarks are the properties of their respective owners.
Images in the LearnNavi.org Forums and Gallery may not be used without permission.

LearnNavi Affiliates:
ToS

LearnNavi is the community to learn Na'vi, the Avatar Language
"A place where real friendships are made." -Paul Frommer

AvatarMeet | Learn Na'vi Forum | Learn Na'vi Wiki | Na'viteri

LearnNavi