Author Topic: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »  (Read 3963 times)

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Offline Prrton

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SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« on: February 19, 2010, 03:38:48 am »
Quote from: Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010
*Fayl*ìri lEksel irayo seiyi oe ngar, ma oeyä 'eylan. Tsat sayar oel nìltsan.

Tewti! Ngeyä lì'fya leNa'vi txantsan lu nìngay. Fwa sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'ia tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan oeru teya si.


sar = 'to use'

fìtxan = 'so, to such an extent'

oeru teya si: 'fills me' (an idiom, English version courtesy James Cameron; understood: "with satisfaction, with joy")

My translation ( :-[ ) only so we can understand the context of his usage:

     I thank you for the Excel file (*fayl* le.Eksel), my friend. I will use it well.

     Wow! Your Na'vi language is truly excellent. It fills me (with satisfaction/joy)
     that people like you can use my strange/funny little creation to
     speak so beautifully.


Other interesting (to me tid bits):

- « Fwa » at the very beginning of the sentence
- Cameron's role/specificity in the idiom « teya si »
- « Tsat » used pragmatically as "it"

NB: for "Excel" (« Eksel ») to modify "file" (« *fayl* ») it takes the adjectivization prefex « le- ». In English we would just stick one before the other with no other part of speech/particle to "make a connection". This is an important difference to note especially since these are both "loan words" into Na'vi. We will have a LOT of these to deal with when speaking in Na'vi about things that are only relevant to Earth ( 'Rrta ), but we should be careful for both our phonological and grammatical "hygiene" to pronounce words and keep them grammatically related as they would be if they were native Na'vi vocabulary. This doesn't matter whether the words are coming from English, German, Japanese, Polish, Swedish, Turkish, French, or whatever...

Edited: 19 Feb. 2010, 9:10 PST to correct mistranslation of « hì'i » from "funny/strange" to "small/little")
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:18:25 am by Prrton »

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2010, 04:01:35 am »
So we're now certain about tsa = it.

And two new words, yay! Now I don't have to use "tìkangkem s<eyk>i".

As for the fwa, looking at the sentence it would ahve to be there in order to keep the focus in the right place. What is interesting is that he didn't use a fì'u instead.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 04:54:15 am »
It seems to me that "fwa" at the start of a sentence is a shortening of "This is X"... which if translated directly would come out as "Fì'u lu fwa X" or just "Lu fwa X" both of which contain superfluous words.  So that one makes perfect sense to me.

To use = big win though, I've been wanting that verb for awhile.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Sanmäkx

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 05:10:59 am »
Quote from: Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010
... oeyä hì'iya tìngopit ...

... my strange/funny creation ...

Shouldn't that be hì'i, "small"? The y prior to -a is throwing me, though.


Offline wm.annis

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 06:15:20 am »
It seems to me that "fwa" at the start of a sentence is a shortening of "This is X"... which if translated directly would come out as "Fì'u lu fwa X" or just "Lu fwa X" both of which contain superfluous words.  So that one makes perfect sense to me.

That interpretation seems a bit elaborated to me.

[Fwa (= fì'u a) [sute pxel nga tsun oeyä hì'iya tìngopit sivar fte pivlltxe nìlor fìtxan]] oeru teya si.

Before seeing this sentence, I would have constructed it with a fì'u after fìtxan.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 07:30:18 am »
Other interesting (to me tid bits):
- Cameron's role/specificity in the idiom « teya si »
I suspect that some of the most interesting parts of Na'vi are going to rely on Ngopyu Jìmeyä ronsem.  I (think? doubt?) that Pawl doesn't have a free hand to come up culturally-dependent stuff like idioms on his own, and I (worry? fear?) that he may not have enough access to Jìm to get new cultural material vetted at the pace that he wants to create and use it.

I ruminated here about the upcoming colors and directions.  They'd be most interesting (imho) if they showed some kind derivation from the unique cultural or biological circumstances of the Na'vi.  But Pawl probably can't make those kinds of decisions - he makes the language, but Jìm makes The People.  I'd hate to think that the potential of the language might be held back because Cameron is busy doing whatever he does when he's not making a movie.

  - Eri

Offline Prrton

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 11:05:38 am »
Quote from: Paul Frommer in mail to Prrton 18 Feb. 2010
... oeyä hì'iya tìngopit ...

... my strange/funny creation ...

Shouldn't that be hì'i, "small"? The y prior to -a is throwing me, though.



YES! You are absolutely correct. I have no business editing ANYTHING at 2:00 in the morning. The "funny" thing (and very interesting thing about human cognition and memory) is that oeyä eltu woke me up this morning telling me you've messed up « hì'i » and turned it into « hiyìk »! I rush her and sure enough you've found it and THANKFULLY pointed it out to everyone! Ngaru irayo seiyi oe, ma tsmuk!. And how incredibly SKXAWNG of me (skxawng apxa / apxa skxawng) to believe such a translation in the first place (even my own mistaken one, and even at 2:00 AM)!

*Pxi.set fmìyi tsat leykivatem nìeyawr!

I humbly apologize to everyone (and especially K. Pawl) for this apxa zoplo!

I think that the -i.y.a must have thrown me off too. It's probably a typo. I'm going to remove it now, and check with him, and put it back if it needs to be there. Great catch!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 11:17:46 am by Prrton »

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 01:04:44 pm »
I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I wanted this infinite predicate verb construction (IANAL) many times and thought that this may be the way to do it from listening to Mo'at's lines in the movie, but here is another good example.

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Kì'eyawn

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 05:16:46 pm »
Huzzah!  Seeing how fte is used here means i can go back and fix another translation of mine.
eo Eywa oe 'ia

Fra'uri tìyawnur oe täpivìng nìwotx...

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 05:36:56 pm »
I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.

Can you really extrapolate that?  The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB").  That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.

Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?

  - Eri

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 05:59:03 pm »
I'm excited about this:  ...sivar ... fte pivlltxe...

I think it's safe to use in other places now, i.e. "learn to speak Na'vi" nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi or maybe "try to run fast" fmì fte tivul nìwin, "go to see him" kä fte tsive'a pot, etc.

Can you really extrapolate that?  The example is "use NOUN to VERB" (or perhaps "use NOUN so that VERB").  That's a different construct than "learn to VERB" or "try to VERB", etc.

Wouldn't your examples just be nume futa pivlltxe nìNa'vi etc, similar to the "long form" of new?

  - Eri


"Learn to VERB" is from Mo'at's line in the movie, so I'm starting to think that "verb fte verb" is a standard construction.  You could say it the other way as well though, I think, depends on the situation and the transitivity of the verb most likely.

-Kale
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Skyinou

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2010, 05:15:07 am »
Kaltxì

"nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" and "nume pivlltxe nìNav'i" probably don't have the same meaning.
In the first one, you learn something with the goal of speaking Na'vi.
In the second, you learn something which is the way of speaking in Na'vi.
Let's rock with The Tanners!

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2010, 11:41:41 am »
Kaltxì

"nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi" and "nume pivlltxe nìNav'i" probably don't have the same meaning.
In the first one, you learn something with the goal of speaking Na'vi.
In the second, you learn something which is the way of speaking in Na'vi.

Has nume pivlltxe nìNa'vi been used in the cannon yet? If it has that would make things a lot easier, but I was under the impression that the V + SJT-V construction was only used for zene, kin, new, and tsun up to this point.  

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline ikngopyu

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2010, 11:44:33 am »
I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try  :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?

Offline Skyinou

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2010, 11:47:36 am »
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.

I've a question about sivar (a n00b one but I try  :)), is sivar from sar = to use + <iv> ?
Yes!
"can use" => "tsun sivar"
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Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 11:55:58 am »
ma Keyl,
The use is only approved with modal verbs, yes, but even if that's not correct with other verbs, there will probably be an other construction for "to + verb", because of the ambiguity I stated earlier, if I'm correct.

Couldn't what you trying to say be expressed like this:

nume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi

vs

nume lì'fyat leNa'vi fte pivlltxe

-Keyl
« Last Edit: February 20, 2010, 12:43:38 pm by Keylstxatsmen »
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline Skyinou

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 12:28:43 pm »
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")

I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.
And what is learned is stated in this one, but not in the first one.
Let's rock with The Tanners!

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 12:53:21 pm »
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")

I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.
And what is learned is stated in this one, but not in the first one.

Srane, good use of puslltxe, I think that's perfect.  Any reason for the change to Na'viyä?

-Keyl
Oeru lì'fya leNa'vi prrte’ leiu nìtxan! 

Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline wm.annis

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2010, 01:12:19 pm »
I think you understand me, I would even say:
2) nume Naviyä lì'fyat apuslltxe (if "puslltxe" can be "spoken")

I try to not use "fpe", because the goal is not stated in this one, but is in the first one.

The usual phrase for "the Na'vi language" in Frommer's work is lì'fya leNa'vi.

I'm afraid puslltxe can absolutely not mean "spoken," which is passive.  "Speaking" is the meaning of puslltxe.

I personally prefer the fpe form, which should be thought of less as indicating goal than purpose.  I study in order to speak Na'vi.  That's what we mean by "I study to speak Na'vi" anyway.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Skyinou

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2010, 01:25:34 pm »
Quote
Any reason for the change to Na'viyä
I like the genitive to say it belongs to the Na'vi. Their language. But It seems I'm wrong if wm.annis say Frommer usually use "lì'fya leNa'vi".

I'm sure I read Frommer saying the passive "us" was used only as an adjective. I'll check it again.
But if "kerusey" is "not living" and used as an adjective (keruseya tute), then "lì'fya puslltxe" should be ok for "spoken language", no?

Quote
That's what we mean by "I study to speak Na'vi" anyway.
Ok, then how would you say the other in english? "I study the way of speaking in Na'vi"? Or do you have to say "I study the Na'vi language"?
Let's rock with The Tanners!

 

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