Author Topic: Si-verbs modification  (Read 1315 times)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Si-verbs modification
« on: December 06, 2013, 04:06:06 pm »
Recently there was discussion about possibility and productivity of noun part si-verbs modification. (starts here and 4 or 5 following posts). Wiki information is quite vague, so why to not ask for more information?

Quote from: Blue Elf
Recently one of community members who rewrites Na'vi in a nutshell (simple grammar document for beginners) asked me about si-verb, more exactly about productivity of adding affixes to noun part od si-verbs.
We have examples like fìkem si/tsakem si/kempe si/wina uvan si, however except these examples there is no writen rule saying that this is productive process. The only information, which is quite vague can be found in our wiki:
http://wiki.learnnavi.org/Canon/2010/UltxaAyharyu%C3%A4#Refinements_of_si-construction_verbs
"Second, like with kem, and apologies that you have to rely on my faulty memory for this one as I asked this during a break so as far as I know I'm the only witness (Hopefully I'm not misremembering), you can use modifiers on si verbs where it makes sense"
So, simple yes/no question just to be sure - it is safe to use affixes/adjective modifiers with noun part of si-verbs, if such modification gives sense?
And what our authority says:
Quote from: Paul
Ah, that's a good question. The general answer is: You can modify the noun component of si-construction verbs in most cases when it makes sense. For example, you could modify srung in srung si:

Txana srung soli po oer.
'He helped me a lot.'
(Literally, He did much help to me.)

But you wouldn't modify nari in nari si or kelku in kelku si; those are more idiomatic and "frozen," where modifying the noun component wouldn't be plausible.

So like many things in language, there isn't a simple yes-no answer. It's more like a scale: On one end are the si-constructions where the noun part is freely modifiable; on the other end are the "frozen" constructions where the nouns aren't modifiable. The more the "si" part can be interpreted as "doing" something to or with the noun part, the more modifiable the noun part is. So with kem si and srung si, I'm doing an action and doing help respectively. With nari si and kelku si, however, I'm not really "doing" eye or "doing" home.

I know that's still a bit vague, but I hope it helps.
And that's all.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 04:18:41 pm by Blue Elf »
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2013, 05:25:21 pm »
In many cases I have found that vague answers like this are more useful than succinct answers, as it gives you some wiggle room in sentence/thought construction. Irayo, ma Karyu Pawl ulte irayo nìteng, ma Blue Elf a perawm tìpawm

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2013, 08:49:06 pm »
Tantsana fmawn! Irayo!
I suspecte that kelku si were 'special', anyway, this news is way more detailed than the older one. :)

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2013, 01:40:44 am »
Irayo. It's useful information :D
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2014, 02:55:47 pm »
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si. Also is it possible to add attributive clauses after si? For example:

  Pelun nga tsakem ke soli a oe ätxäle soli?
  Why you did not make what I ask you for?

I guess pelun nga ätxäle soli oe a tsakem ke soli? would work, but what about first example?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2014, 05:22:38 pm »
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si.
IMHO it works, I even think there's some example from Paul. At least we have wina uvan si -> play a quick game. But I'm quite sure there's also example with srung. Plumps knows it for sure :)
Quote
Also is it possible to add attributive clauses after si? For example:

  Pelun nga tsakem ke soli a oe ätxäle soli?
  Why you did not make what I ask you for?

I guess pelun nga ätxäle soli oe a tsakem ke soli? would work, but what about first example?
I would expect:
pelun nga tsakem a ätxäle soli oe ke soli ?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2014, 05:27:07 pm »
I would expect:
pelun nga tsakem a ätxäle soli oe ke soli ?

yeah, I think it works. But what about my example?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2014, 05:35:33 pm »
That's question. As we have examples like in this thread, it should work. But I would probably prefer word order as in previous example. (at least it is safer)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2014, 06:10:27 pm »
But I would probably prefer word order as in previous example. (at least it is safer)

I completely agree.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Plumps

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2014, 08:53:43 pm »
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si.
IMHO it works, I even think there's some example from Paul. At least we have wina uvan si -> play a quick game. But I'm quite sure there's also example with srung. Plumps knows it for sure :)

Only one example comes to mind:

Kea kem leyewla rä’ä si, rutxe.
‘Please don’t let me down.’ (lit.: no action-disappointing do-not, please)


Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2014, 12:58:54 am »
To me anyways, Kemaweyan's first example made more sense to me than any of the other examples. These are interesting and potentially useful constructions. I am looking forward to what K. Pawl has to say about all of this.

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2014, 02:31:05 am »
To me anyways, Kemaweyan's first example made more sense to me than any of the other examples.

Which one? You mean Pelun nga tsakem ke soli a oe ätxäle soli?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Si-verbs modification
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2014, 09:47:58 am »
Interesting question: is it possible to add attributes to noun in si-versb between this noun and si? For example: srung atxan si.
IMHO it works, I even think there's some example from Paul. At least we have wina uvan si -> play a quick game. But I'm quite sure there's also example with srung. Plumps knows it for sure :)

Only one example comes to mind:

Kea kem leyewla rä’ä si, rutxe.
‘Please don’t let me down.’ (lit.: no action-disappointing do-not, please)


I did some research, but can't find example I was speaking about. Seems I confused it with something else. Hìtxoa...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


 

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