Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #1: Updates from the Language Workshop

[wm.annis]

Rather than crush everyone with a massive dump of information, we're going to spend the next two weeks or so making posts in the "Language updates" with a few items each post.  It'll give people a chance to assimilate everything new, as well as give other participants a chance to chime in if they remember some tidbit.  Several of us took notes, but no one of us caught everything.

You will recall that there was a poll in which you could vote for seven questions for Frommer.  Member Lance R. Casey collected and sorted the results, with a PDF available in this post.  When you see something like "(#12)" at the head of a section, that refers to question 12 from the poll.  Remember that some items may have the same number, due to how the poling numbers worked out.

One thing I can say, that Frommer mentioned as part of another question but which make sense to just announce here, is: there will be no new infixes.  Any new grammar he creates will use other means.


Dates and Kinship (#4, #1)
We did discuss these issues somewhat, but both matters wander solidly into Cameron's territory, so Paul couldn't really decide much (as we expected).  One clear detail I recall, though, is that he approved of borrowing from English the names of months — for purely Human use — since these Latinate names are very widely used all over this planet.  Any other vocabulary of time needs to work sensibly with the Na'vi cultural context.


Transitivity and Infixes of Existing Verbs (#2)
He produced a list of all the verbs with infix locations and transitivity clarified.  He'll be sending that list to Taronyu to work into the dictionary.  I'll try to get a copy, too, to make sure the Wiki vocabulary is up to date, too.  

While Frommer likes the simplicity of the floating dot notation for marking infix location, it's a nuisance for him to type into his own records of Na'vi vocabulary.  So, he came up with his own system.  It takes two digits to indicate infix location, the first one indicating which syllable first position infixes go into, the second one indicating the location of the second position infixes (simple enough).  For example, 'efu is 12 — the first syllable ('e-) gets the first position infixes and the second (-fu) gets the second position infixes.  This is the usual pattern for non-compound verbs of two syllables, such as the ever popular taron.  

For another example: 'awstengyem join is 33 — all infixes go into the third syllable, -yem (that means this verb is a compound).  Some more interesting examples:

tsunslu 12
zoslu 22    (Note: fixed Oct 8 2010)
tungzup 12
emza'u 23 (transitive)
kllfro' 22 (intransitive)

Note that it's not entirely predictable where a compound verb is going to get its infixes.


Self/own (#2)
The question here is the ambiguity in "he cooked his dinner" — is "his dinner" someone else's or his own (referring to the subject of the sentence).  Most human languages have ways to distinguish this.  Now Na'vi does, too: sno (genitive sneyä) his/her/their own.  Notice that this word isn't changed for number.  Frommer's examples:

pol 'olem peyä wutsot He made his (i.e., someone else's) dinner.
pol 'olem sneyä wutsot He made his own dinner.

There was quite a bit of discussion with this.  There are a few open questions he wanted to think about.  First, is there other vocabulary derivable from the root sno?  Second, would sno/sneyä ever be used with the first or second person pronoun?  That is, which is better oel 'olem oeyä wutsot or oel 'olem sneyä wutsot? — some languages favor the first pattern, some the second.  Frommer seemed suspicious of using sno with anything but the third person ("his/her/their own"), but he made some notes to himself about it.  Stick with oel 'olem oeyä wutsot for now.

[Kemaweyan]

Thanks, ma wm

kllfro' 22 (intransitive)

I think it should be used with topic. For example:

  oe kllfro' pori
  I'm responsible for him

Is this correct?

[Kì'eyawn]

Ma Kemaweyan, fìsäfpìlìri tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu vewng
Kemaweyan, for this idea you can use the word vewng.

[wm.annis]

oe kllfro' pori
  I'm responsible for him

First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.

Second, isn't there a line in the film where Mo'at uses this very word?

[Kemaweyan]

First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.

I agree, but I think it isn't a rule We have free word order

Second, isn't there a line in the film where Mo'at uses this very word?

I don't remember... Perhaps when she says to Neytiri to teach Jake, but I'm not sure..

Ma Kemaweyan, fìsäfpìlìri tsun fko sivar lì'ut alu vewng
Kemaweyan, for this idea you can use the word vewng.

Sran, slä livu ral teng nìwotx srak?
Yeah, but would the meaning to be the same?

[Prrton]

oe kllfro' pori
 I'm responsible for him

First, I'd almost always want to put the topical at the start of the clause.

Second, isn't there a line in the film where Mo'at uses this very word?

kllfro' and vewng have a lot of overlap. Vewng is transitive and specifically has the meaning of "look after/care for". I asked K. Pawl about kllfro' once and he said it simply means to be the bearer of responsibility. It does not carry the stigma of "being irresponsible" (character flaw).

If Jake had NOT become adept in the ways of the Na'vi, Neytiri would still bare the responsibility for that, but it would not mean that she did not actively vewng him in the process of his trying.

I have never properly parsed the "you will be responsible" line in my brain, so I'm not sure of the syntax.

O.F. would know

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Kemaweyan]

Oeri kop lamu fìsäfpìl a teri tìketeng, slä ke amomum oel fya'ot a tsari oeyktìng Ulte nìsung oe ke omum nìngay, tafral fpolìl futa tsaw tsun livu teng pxel melì'u alu hawnu sì tìhawnu si. Irayo, ma Prrton.
I also had this idea about difference, but didn't know how to explain this And besides I was not sure, therefore assumed what these words can be the same like "hawnu" and "tìhawnu si". Thanks, ma Prrton.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

So far the workshop seems to have been a success, just hoping Pawl didn't have to much to drink before making any decisions on the language. 

On an unrelated note, anyone know if Pawl shows up in the Collector's Bluray?

[Prrton]

On an unrelated note, anyone know if Pawl shows up in the Collector's Bluray?

Who knows what will happen in the editing process... ? ? ?

Oel fpìl futa tsunslu fwa liven.*

['Oma Tirea]

Rather than crush everyone with a massive dump of information...

Personally, I don't mind the dump, but oe tslam.

Very nice info, and it seems that "sno" will come in quite useful.

[Plumps]

Ftu kxa K. Pawlä: « ye'rìn 'ìyi'a sänume a tsari kllfro' oe » from the Earth Day message.

Irayo, for the summary, ma wm.

[Carborundum]

Thanks for the update ma William!
Regarding infixes, while looking through Ftiafpi's photo-album from the event, I noticed this picture:

Spoiler

And I was wondering if perhaps maybe there's an explanation of <ìm>+<ìy> to go with it?

[Taronyu]

The explanation is this: That picture does not exist. Block it from your memory. It never happened. Neytiri messed up.

In other news, I'm not putting sno in the dictionary yet - I'm waiting for Frommer to post about it on his blog. I don't want to jump the gu on it's usage and definition, having remembered all of the issues we had with pum.

[Carborundum]

Fair enough

[Taronyu]

Fair enough

Aw, I don't mean to make that face happen.

Essentially, that was a goof. It makes sense, sort of, but it really should never have happened. So, let's all pretend it didn't. Frommer was quite specific in asking that no one take a picture of that. Naturally, we all did.

[C'tri Atan'itan]

I'm liking this "gentle" approach to disseminating information from the workshop

[Nyx]

Tanks for the update!

I like sno, the English ambiguity is a little annoying sometimes.

[Lance R. Casey]

Yeah. To us Scandinavians, the peyä/sneyä distinction is quite natural and expected.

[Ftiafpi]

Yeah, I totally took a picture of the evil word. 

But, Taronyu is correct, that infix doesn't exist and the use of it in the film has been relegated to an error (Neytiri stuttered or something).

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Saying something like 'don't take a picture of that', with that group of folks, is like saying, 'everyone, please take a picture'