Sì'eyng a ftu Na'rìng #°11: (nì)tengfya, genders, modals and infixes

[wm.annis]

This is the last of the updates from the workshop.  I hope to have a major update to the reference grammar ready in a day or two, with everything new in it.  It's possible we'll get a few updates from Frommer about a few of these posts, but the major work is done.


Nìtengfya and Tengfya
These words are not identical.  Tengfya is more about situational similarity:

  Sunu oeru teylu tengfya sunu por fkxen Just as I like teylu, he likes fkxen.

But nìtengfya concentrates on some action being performed in the same way:

  Po sì oe tìkangkem soli nìtengfya she and I did it in the same way.


Gender
First, Olo'eyktan is not a male leader.  Paul reiterated that the sex suffixes -e and -an are not productive.

On the grammar side of things, poe and poan cannot be pluralized.  Use (ay)fo.


Modals and Infixes (#27)
When using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.


"He made me want to make you eat teylu"
I was not present for this, but some mad genius asked Paul how to say, "he made me want to make you eat teylu" — using only infixes.  I would loved to have seen Paul's face.  It turns out, you cannot do this using only infixes.  Here is the chain of development:

  Pol oeru teyluti yeykolom  He made me eat teylu.
  Pol oeru neykew futa oel yivom teyluti  He made me want to eat teylu.
  Pol oeru neykew futa oel ngaru yeykivom teyluti He made me want to make you eat teylu.

At least now we know how to deal with causatives of new.

[Swoka Swizaw]

First, Olo'eyktan is not a male leader.  Paul reiterated that the sex suffixes -e and -an are not productive.

Well, that sort of (though, not entirely) botches the idea that I had that Frommer devised the male suffix, -(t)an, from "eyktan," like he was able to create two viable words from toruk. Lord knows that I was holding out for "olo'eykte."

[omängum fra'uti]

No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.

[Swoka Swizaw]

No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.

Buzzkill... 

['Oma Tirea]

No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.

Buzzkill... 

Srane

[Plumps]

No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.

And hopefully no *'eyle


Thanks for keeping us up to date, ma William!

[Dreamlight]

No, it pretty much entirely botches it.  Olo'eyktan has nothing to do with the -an gender suffix, he pretty much laid that out clearly.  Olo'eyktan (And eyktan for that matter) are 100% gender neutral terms.  There will never be *olo'eykte.

I would imagine that if one wants/needs to specify gender one could say olo'eyktanan or olo'eyktane, as appropriate?

[omängum fra'uti]

Nope.

Paul reiterated that the sex suffixes -e and -an are not productive.

If you REALLY wanted to specify gender, you could say "olo'eyktan alu tutan" for example, but Na'vi just really wouldn't do that normally.  Tuté, tutan, ke tsranten for.

[kewnya txamew'itan]

Modals and Infixes (#27)
When using modals with controlled verbs, only the modals get tense and aspect marking.  The controlled verb will only get the pre-first infixes (causative, reflexive), and of course the subjunctive.

What about affectuals? It seems to me that there would be a distinction between "tseiun oe tivaron" and "tsun oe tivareion" but now this post makes me question whether the second is allowed.

[omängum fra'uti]

And what would that distinction to be?  How would you translate the second?

(And I believe what was said was that they are not allowed.)

[Skyinou]

I'm pretty sure he said only <iv> <eyk> and <äp> can be in the second verb.

"He made me want to make you eat teylu"
I was not present for this, but some mad genius asked Paul how to say, "he made me want to make you eat teylu" — using only infixes.  I would loved to have seen Paul's face.

Thanks 

He ran away...

[kewnya txamew'itan]

And what would that distinction to be?  How would you translate the second?

(And I believe what was said was that they are not allowed.)

Fairly minor, just that, the first would describe that you would imply that the ability was what pleased you whereas in the second it would be the action that would please you,, as I say, fairly minor.