Author Topic: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)  (Read 3120 times)

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Offline Tseyk Tìriuä

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The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« on: February 01, 2010, 06:42:14 pm »
I sent an email to Frommer inquiring about the reflexive infix and he responded! Here's a copy of the email:
Quote
Kaltxì ma oeyä 'eylan,

Thanks for the questions, Jake. (Good name for someone who likes Avatar!)

I guess I haven't mentioned anything about the reflexive yet. Here's a quick explanation:

The reflexive is formed with an infix -äp- that's in "pre-first" position--that is, it comes before the familiar infixes in first position.

So:

I see myself.  = Oe tsäpe'a.

Note: There's no pronoun "myself"--all you need is the infix. And it's oe, not oel.

You've seen yourself. = Nga tsäpole'a.

Be careful to keep the stress in the original place. Since for tse'a the stress is on the final a, that's where it stays in all the inflected forms.

They'll see themselves. = (Ay)fo tsäpaye'a.

wash = yur

So:

I wash myself. = Oe yäpur.
I'm washing myself. = Oe yäperur.

Tslolam srak? :-)

As for "My name is . . ."

You COULD say

Tstxo oeyä lu ___.

tstxo = name

But that's not the idiomatic way to say it. Instead, you say "They call me . . ." (which is of course common in many earth languages as well).

The grammar here is tricky:

Oeru syaw fko ___.

Things to note:

syaw 'call' is intransitive: you call TO someone. That's why it's fko, not fkol, and oeru, not oeti. (Fko, as I think you know, means 'one' or 'they' in the general sense.) The actual name as almost like an adverb in this construction: To say "My name is Jake," you actually say something like, "They call to me in a Jake way." :-)

The question, by the way, is:

Fyape fko syaw ngar?

Literally: How does one call you?

So a typical little conversation is:

--Fyape fko syaw ngar?
--Oeru syaw fko Neytiri. Ngaru tut?
--Oeru syaw Tseyk.

In the last sentence, "fko" is understood. You could actually leave it out in the 2nd sentences as well. Ngar and ngaru are used interchangeably--pick the one you think sounds better in its position. And "tut" is a "particle of continuation"--here you'd translate "ngaru tut" as "And how about you?"

Hope that helps! Feel free to share . . .

Kìyevame.

Pawl



So alot of questions answered! That reflexive infix and how someone would introduce themselves with their name!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 08:02:15 pm by Tiriuä »


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä’evangäti ngamop.

Offline demonmaestro

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2010, 06:47:11 pm »
oootttttzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2010, 06:52:26 pm »
Suh-weet!

Canonified.

The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.
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Offline suomichris

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2010, 06:53:47 pm »
Suh-weet!

Canonified.

The yur wash example is very suggestive of some interesting transitivity matters.
Weeeeeee!

And, yeah, looks like the reflexive is both reflexivizing and reducing the valency of the verb.  Not surprising, I suppose, but cool!

Offline Tseyk Tìriuä

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2010, 06:57:28 pm »
Yeah it is so exciting...and the introductions using names too! Paul Frommer is the best!


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä’evangäti ngamop.

Offline wm.annis

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 06:57:35 pm »
Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.

I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak.  Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.
'Awa lì'fya ke tam kawkrr.
A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Keylstxatsmen

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2010, 07:02:08 pm »
Oh, gosh — tut is very interesting, too.

I've been using Ulte ngaru srak? as a followup to being asked how I am via ngaru lu fpom srak.  Looks like ngaru tut will work for that, too.

Tut is definitely interesting! (says the guy who loves particles) :)

-Keyl
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Txo nga new leskxawnga tawtutehu nìNa'vi pivängkxo, oeru 'upxaret fpe' ulte ngaru srungit tayìng oel.  Faylì'ut alor nume 'awsiteng ko!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2010, 07:16:28 pm »
Sweet, I can finally stop telling people not to use "syaw" for giving their name, and start telling them how to do it correctly!
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Tseyk Tìriuä

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Re: The Reflexive (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2010, 07:54:04 pm »
Yeah the name thing is huge!


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä’evangäti ngamop.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2010, 09:29:48 pm »
SCOOOOOOORE!

Offline Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2010, 09:39:18 pm »
manly squeeeeeeeeee!
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Offline Java

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2010, 09:42:29 pm »
Is this rule going to be added to the pocket guide or other grammar guides? I hope so  :)

Offline Tseyk Tìriuä

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2010, 09:44:21 pm »
I'm sure it will be added shortly (they are good with this kind of stuff).


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä’evangäti ngamop.

Offline Nume fpi sänume

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2010, 09:46:44 pm »
Excellent, great to know I can now properly introduce myself :) Its been bugging me for a while.

Offline Tseyk Tìriuä

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2010, 10:05:54 pm »
Yes haha enough of that poorly slapped together intro grammar! xD


Tengkrr tìsngä'i Yawäl peyä tsenget ulte kifkey Yawä’evangäti ngamop.

Offline Eight

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2010, 02:38:27 am »
New merchandise idea...

"We <3 Frommer"

I've never needed the reflexive yet but I feel strangely warm inside now that I know it's here. It's like a little part of me that was missing has just found its own way back.

Offline Plumps

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2010, 03:51:17 am »
Great!

I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?

Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2010, 03:56:55 am »
Great!

I've noticed now a lot of specific sentence construction (idioms? phrases?) with "my name is...", "I love you" and "I have" and I'm sure I'm missing out on others - has anyone tried to collect them to put them into a document?

Other thing that I noticed - Frommer calls it pre-first position. Does that speak against the theory (I don't know who came up with it in the first place) of3 infix positions?

That's actually a very good idea... :D  I figured with how many expressions we have at this point, it was about time to think about such a collection.

And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions.  The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions.  The 3 positions is just adding a third label.  IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread.  I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline roger

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2010, 04:30:55 am »
And about the 2 vs 3 infix positions, Frommer has always called it two, because there are two positions.  The penultimate and the ultimate syllable positions.  The 3 positions is just adding a third label.  IMO it's not a good idea, but I'm sure I've made that clear in my other thread.  I'm not sure if it will be possible to convince the people teaching it that it is a bad idea though.
That may depend on how much we know about the language. When all we knew of position 1 / pre-1 was the participle, which we still don't know how to use properly, calling that "position 1" and the TAM markers "position 2" was a way to keep things separated. Now that we can start inflecting verbs on our own with both "pre-1" and TAM, we can create enough examples to illustrate the diff, and pretending there are 3 separate infix positions is IMO no longer required. We can just say that when TAM and non-TAM are both used, non-TAM comes first; when two TAM markers are used, aspect infixes into tense and both infix into mood, and that when two tense markers are used, AFAIK they go in temporal order. That's just a way of juggling multiple infixes in position 1, a problem that does not occur w position 2 because only one infix can occur there at a time.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: The Reflexive and "My name is..." (from a Frommer email!!!!)
« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2010, 04:39:35 am »
We know as much about the participle now as we did then though.  The only thing we know now that we didn't know then is how subjunctive and tense meld, and what the reflexive infix is.  The rest we either had a correct assumption about or still don't know.  The participle being pre-first, for example, is based on a statement from Frommer that is unclear at best.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

 

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