Author Topic: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>  (Read 1338 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Kaltxì ma frapo,

There was recently a discussion if one can combine reflexive <äp> and causative <eyk> with the active/passive participles.
As this is a quite difficult question, Pawl could only answer a part of it:
Quote from: Ta Pawl
[...]
You ask some excellent questions! Most of them I want to think about for a bit longer, since the ramifications are important.

One preliminary judgment, though: <awn> can't be used with <äp>:

*Oel tse'a ioangit ayäpawnur. --That's not grammatical.

The reason is that <awn> is only used with transitive verbs, since it's only for transitive verbs that passive makes sense: We can have tsawne'a, yawnur, tspawnang, etc. but not *zawna'u, *hawnahaw, *kxawnem, etc.

But what <äp> does is turn a transitive verb into an intransitive one. We say, for example, Pol ngati tse'a. 'He sees you.'

But with the reflexive, it's Po tsäpe'a 'He sees himself,'  not *Pol tsäpe'a. This indicates that tsäpe'a is intransitive. it would be like having an intransitive verb "self-see," (which of course we do not have in English!) that cannot take an object: If such a verb existed, "John self-sees" would be OK, but "John self-sees Mary" would not be possible.

So this eliminates one cell in the matrix:

                 <äp>           <eyk>

<us>


<awn>      NO


I'll be thinking more about the other 3 cells. ;-)

I'll get back to you again as soon as I can.

So, a quarter of the question has been answered: combination of <awn> and <äp> is impossible

Update:
Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn> - The 2nd :) :)
« Last Edit: August 26, 2016, 09:30:07 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 01:43:58 pm »
Tsaw eltur tìtxen si, irayo. Ke tsun fko sivar fìmekemlì'uvit awsiteng a fì'u lam muiä ;) Lahea hapxìri tì'eyngä oe perey nìftxavang...
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 02:03:37 pm »
Srane. Slä lahea hemlì'uvit eltur tìtxen sayi! Oe new ivomum tsat, slä tìmweypey! :D

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 02:17:08 pm »
This makes a lot of sense.

But this also means that <äp><us> is not ruled out and may very well be possible. Same with the <eyk> combinations.

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 02:28:41 pm »
By the logic of his explanation, <eyk> and <awn> could be possible as <eyk> makes a verb transitive. :-\
As for <äp> and <us>, I somehow feel it's possible, but lets wait what Pawl will say. :)

(hrh, funny discussion that everything should be send by the LEP xD)

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 04:05:33 pm »
I wasn't aware that <awn> would only work with transitive verbs, but the explanation makes sense.

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 09:08:01 pm »
I wasn't aware that <awn> would only work with transitive verbs, but the explanation makes sense.

It only makes sense. Using it on an intransitive word would not make any sense. The whole point of <awn>'s existence has always been to turn a verb into an adjective which would modify a noun to say that the verb has been applied to the noun modified. Which would by definition mean that the verb has to be transitive, or such a noun the verb was applied to applied to could not be. This noun would be the direct object.

Oel yolom syuvet. Oel ke tse'a yawnoma syuvet.
I ate food. I don't see the eaten food.

tutan holahaw. Tutanìl tse'a *hawnahawa....???
The man slept. The man sees the *slept...???

How can we make a passive participle of this, given there is no direct object?
Here this <awn> is modifying a noun into one which has had the verb executed upon it.

All examples of <awn> we have ever seen, did you notice they were all transitive? :)

But <us> is interesting. We don't quite have the same problem with this one.

Tutanìl yerom syuvet. Oel tse'a yusoma tutanit.
The man is eating food. I see the eating man.

Zerup tompa. Oel tse'a zusupa tompati.
Rain is falling. I see the falling rain.

Because here, this looks to be modifying a noun into one which is in the process of doing the verb.

:)

--
I patiently await the coming answers...
« Last Edit: August 15, 2014, 04:25:39 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #7 on: August 15, 2014, 03:59:34 am »
Great :D I guessed that part correctly ;D
I'm very curious about the other forms...

* Wllìm modifies the Verb infix tool to reject <äp> + <awn>
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #8 on: August 15, 2014, 01:50:31 pm »
By the logic of his explanation, <eyk> and <awn> could be possible as <eyk> makes a verb transitive. :-\
As for <äp> and <us>, I somehow feel it's possible, but lets wait what Pawl will say. :)

(hrh, funny discussion that everything should be send by the LEP xD)
But language IS NOT math and logic sometimes (or even often) doesn't work. Let's wait for final answer (whether logical or not ;)).
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2014, 03:24:59 pm »
But language IS NOT math and logic sometimes (or even often) doesn't work. Let's wait for final answer (whether logical or not ;)).

Absolutely. Unexpected exceptions happen all the time in natural languages. But there does come a point where something is SO nonsensical, that it cannot possibly exist. Right? :-\ Still, I agree.

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2014, 04:24:15 pm »
The second sentence doesn't make grammatical sense:

Zerup tompa. Oel tse'a zusupa tompa.
Rain is falling. I see the falling rain.

Tse'a is a transitive verb, so Oel is properly marked as a agent. The root verb of zusup, zup is intransitive. But since zusup is now effectively an adjective (and takes an -a-), it simply modifies tompa, which should be marked as a patient, and thus be tompat(i)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2014, 04:26:42 pm »
The second sentence doesn't make grammatical sense:

Zerup tompa. Oel tse'a zusupa tompa.
Rain is falling. I see the falling rain.

Tse'a is a transitive verb, so Oel is properly marked as a agent. The root verb of zusup, zup is intransitive. But since zusup is now effectively an adjective (and takes an -a-), it simply modifies tompa, which should be marked as a patient, and thus be tompat(i)

Took the long route to say "forgot -t in that 2nd one" eh? ;D Yeah, I dun messed up. *edited the previous post* +1 to you for correcting that error :)

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Reflexive / Causative in combination with the infixes <us> and <awn>
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2014, 05:32:27 pm »
But there does come a point where something is SO nonsensical, that it cannot possibly exist. Right? :-\

HRH! Ever seen the Dutch spelling rules for making compound nouns? :D


I think almost all Dutch people wonder how such a nonsensical, complicated rule was invented... Almost nobody does it right anyway :o
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