Author Topic: to "throw at" X  (Read 897 times)

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Offline Tìtstewan

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to "throw at" X
« on: March 02, 2015, 03:39:25 pm »
I have a plan for this question, but there is no garantee, of course. :)
Plan successful, I received an answer. :)

Ayngaru fì'u:
Quote from: ta Pawl
Quote from: ta oe
[...]
Btw, how to say “throw at X” in Na’vi?

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
I throw a stone to (direction) you. [this sound ‘neutral’]
or
Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
I throw a stone to you (dative). [this would imply that one would give a stone to someone]
or
Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga.
I throw a stone against you. [this would have an aggressive meaning]

Eltur tìtxen seiyi.
[...]


[...]
About "throw":

I like all your three suggestions. Ne does indeed imply the physical act of throwing towards someone, keeping with the idea that verbs of motion use ne as the place towards which the motion is directed. Here the English translation would be, "He threw a/the stone to me."

The dative case would be used in the sense of giving the stone to someone, although there's some overlap here with ne. Here again the English would be, ""He threw a/the stone to me."

And would have an aggressive connotation. The translation here would differ: "He threw a/the stone at me."
[...]

ADDENDUM thanks to Blue Elf.

Quote from: Blue Elf
I’d like to ask some explanation about “throw at” conversation you have had recently with Tìtstewan.
Here are two sentences with your explanation:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
Ne does indeed imply the physical act of throwing towards someone, keeping with the idea that verbs of motion use ne as the place towards which the motion is directed. Here the English translation would be, "He threw a/the stone to me."
2/Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
The dative case would be used in the sense of giving the stone to someone, although there's some overlap here with ne. Here again the English would be, ""He threw a/the stone to me."
English version of both examples is the same, what is a little confusing, as meaning is not completely the same. It can be well seen in translation into my native Czech:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you or transferring stone from me to you. I can hit you or not – but only direction is what matters.
2/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving from hand to hand (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but move the stone from me to you).
Is this way how we should understand these two sentences? I think it is limitation of English that it can’t express the difference – for exact meaning we should translate 1/ as  I throw stone in direction to you.
Are these thoughts correct?
Quote from: Reply from Paul
I think your analysis is very good, B.E. The sentence with ne implies, as you've said very clearly, direction: "I threw the stone in his direction." One way to express that in English is to use "towards": "I threw the stone towards him." And the ngaru sentence implies intentionally transferring the stone by throwing rather than giving by hand: "I threw him the stone."

Now that I think of it, when we say in English, "I threw the stone to him," it's almost always the second interpretation rather than the first.

To be a little clearer about that:

(1) I threw the stone towards him. DIRECTION

(2) I threw him the stone. TRANSFERRING FROM ONE TO ANOTHER BY THROWING

(3) I threw the stone to him.   ???

I think the answer is that in English, almost always, (3) = (2). I can't think of natural examples where (3) = (1).

So I should have used "towards" in the translation of the ne sentence.


---

Russian translation:
Использование глагола tsre'i
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 03:38:31 pm by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Plumps

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to "throw at" X
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 03:44:41 pm »
Txantsan. Wonderful :) Thanks for sharing.

Offline Vawmataw

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to "throw at" X
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 04:06:59 pm »
Irayo ma Karyu Pawl sì Tìtstewan!

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 04:12:16 pm »
Kea tìkin! :)

I've moved this part to the right section, even if this isn't that big language news.

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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 09:01:25 pm »
Actually, this is quite useful language information. Irayo, ma Tìtstewan!

Yawey ngahu!
pamrel si ro [email protected]

Offline Kame Ayyo’koti

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2015, 02:04:40 pm »
Awesome! :) One more mystery solved. Thank you for forwarding that question to Paul, ma Tìtstewan.
"Your work is to discover your world, and then with all your heart give yourself to it."

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 01:59:52 pm »
Well, our knowledge increased again. Very good!
Just to be more sure, are these explanation correct?:

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga. -> I throw stone in direction to you -> most probably you will not be hit be stone and you aren't able to catch it

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru. -> I throw stone to you -> I throw it in way you'll be able to catch it into hands while it flies

Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga. -> I intend to hit you by stone.

That's how I understand it now.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 02:05:34 pm by Blue Elf »
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2015, 02:34:59 pm »
Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga. -> I throw stone in direction to you -> most probably you will not be hit by stone and you aren't able to catch it
It has nothing to do with the ability of catching something. This sentence has a neutral meaning. One throws a stone in direction to X, but the attention behind is not aggresive. No matter if you will catch the stone or not.
Here a example of the intended meaning:
Neytiri poltxe san, Ma Tsyeyk, nga zene tsrive'i ngeyä tukrut ne fìtangek. sìk. Sìlpey oe, ngal tiyevakuk tsat.


Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru. -> I throw stone to you -> I throw it in way you'll be able to catch it into hands while it flies
This is basically the same like above mentioned. But this rather mean that one throw the stone to X in the sense of: one want to give the stone to somebody.
Just a scene for better imagination:
You and your friend are flying with your ikran. Your frind sees a prey and he call to you:
Ma 'eylan, tsun nga tsrive'i oer ngeyä tukrut. Oel kasyin tsat.

Oel tsre'i tskxet wä nga. -> I intend to hit you by stone.
Correct. this indeed means an aggresive action.


Btw. I've added a link to the russian translation in the OP. Irayo, ma Kemaweyan! :)

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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2015, 04:35:19 am »
I asked because translation into Czech give different meanings for first and second case.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you ot transferring stone from me to you - direction is what matters.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but throw you the stone)

however it seems that in Na'vi both these examples are roughly the same and it would lead to question how to express meaning from my second example. It looks like problem on English side (or maybe on the side of in my English :))
I think I'll ask Pawl for more info.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Plumps

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2015, 05:08:55 am »
I asked because translation into Czech give different meanings for first and second case.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you ot transferring stone from me to you - direction is what matters.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but throw you the stone)

I’ll interpret it exactly the same in Na’vi.
You could translate the first example as “I throw the stone in your direction” (I don’t want to hit you, whether you catch it or not is not important). I don’t see anything wrong with it. ne connotes a general direction “to, towards”, so I think you’re on the right track in Czech ;)

Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2015, 05:29:05 am »
Total this what Plumps wrote. :)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 12:31:15 pm »
I asked because translation into Czech give different meanings for first and second case.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you ot transferring stone from me to you - direction is what matters.

Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but throw you the stone)

however it seems that in Na'vi both these examples are roughly the same and it would lead to question how to express meaning from my second example. It looks like problem on English side (or maybe on the side of in my English :))
I think I'll ask Pawl for more info.

This is my understanding as well.


--

Thanks for the update ma Tìtstewan!

Offline Blue Elf

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2015, 03:30:58 pm »
As confirmation doesn't hurt, here it is:
Quote from: Blue Elf
I’d like to ask some explanation about “throw at” conversation you have had recently with Tìtstewan.
Here are two sentences with your explanation:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga.
Ne does indeed imply the physical act of throwing towards someone, keeping with the idea that verbs of motion use ne as the place towards which the motion is directed. Here the English translation would be, "He threw a/the stone to me."
2/Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru.
The dative case would be used in the sense of giving the stone to someone, although there's some overlap here with ne. Here again the English would be, ""He threw a/the stone to me."
English version of both examples is the same, what is a little confusing, as meaning is not completely the same. It can be well seen in translation into my native Czech:
1/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ne nga -> () Hážu kámen k tobě. This sentence emphasizes direction, where stone is being thrown. It doesn't say anything about intention to hit you or transferring stone from me to you. I can hit you or not – but only direction is what matters.
2/ Oel tsre'i tskxet ngaru -> () Hážu kámen tobě is perfect parallelism with tìng - stone is transferred from me to you by throwing instead of giving from hand to hand (and meaning is positive, I don't want to hit you, but move the stone from me to you).
Is this way how we should understand these two sentences? I think it is limitation of English that it can’t express the difference – for exact meaning we should translate 1/ as  I throw stone in direction to you.
Are these thoughts correct?
Quote from: Reply from Paul
I think your analysis is very good, B.E. The sentence with ne implies, as you've said very clearly, direction: "I threw the stone in his direction." One way to express that in English is to use "towards": "I threw the stone towards him." And the ngaru sentence implies intentionally transferring the stone by throwing rather than giving by hand: "I threw him the stone."

Now that I think of it, when we say in English, "I threw the stone to him," it's almost always the second interpretation rather than the first.

To be a little clearer about that:

(1) I threw the stone towards him. DIRECTION

(2) I threw him the stone. TRANSFERRING FROM ONE TO ANOTHER BY THROWING

(3) I threw the stone to him.   ???

I think the answer is that in English, almost always, (3) = (2). I can't think of natural examples where (3) = (1).

So I should have used "towards" in the translation of the ne sentence.
and finally:
Quote from: Paul
I'm behind in presenting new vocabulary. I do hope to get a post out this week, however, so I'll ask you to be patient just a little longer.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: to "throw at" X
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2015, 03:36:31 pm »
Thanks for posting it! :D
I got that mail too. ;D

Yeah, the general problem is, the English language solves the dative case in two ways: by word order or by using the preposition to. That “to-dative” could overlap with the version that mean to as direction, of course. This is what cause confusion.

I addad tha to the OP too. :)

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