Author Topic: confirmation on use of rangal  (Read 2125 times)

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Offline Tirea Aean

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confirmation on use of rangal
« on: August 18, 2011, 03:04:50 pm »
Quote
On Aug 18, 2011 2:25 PM, Paul Frommer wrote:

Kaltxì ma TA!
Rangal is intransitive, so Oe rangal tsnì is the better of the two. But if it's first person ("I wish that . . ."), the best way is just to use the adverb nìrangal.
Ngeyä 'upxaret oel toleiel. Irayo, ma 'eylan! Tì'eyngit fpasye' ye'rìn.
ta P.

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From: Tirea Aean <[email protected]>

Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 10:04:07 -0400
To: Paul Frommer
Subject: Fwd: rangal

real quick question:
>
> ---------- Forwarded message --------
Oel rangal futa..

OR

Oe rangal tsnì..??

Just was wondering

--TA

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Offline Txonä Unil Stä'nìyu Rolyusì

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2011, 03:11:23 pm »
Squeeeeeee!!!! Fì'uri seiyi irayo nìtxan  :D Oe pamrel sarmeiyi nìfya'o ayawr fralo!

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Offline Plumps

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2011, 03:22:59 pm »
Wonderful … now there’s just the question of what infixes to use :-\ Wasn’t there something with either ‹ilv› or ‹irv› ???
But when to use what?

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2011, 04:23:15 pm »
Wonderful … now there’s just the question of what infixes to use :-\ Wasn’t there something with either ‹ilv› or ‹irv› ???
But when to use what?


you know, I remember that being in NiaN but i have never seen the canon source for that. Followup perhaps is in order.

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Offline wm.annis

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2011, 04:51:23 pm »
you know, I remember that being in NiaN but i have never seen the canon source for that. Followup perhaps is in order.

Canon ("A Collection").

I know my grammar is a little imposing, but it does have an index with clickable page numbers.
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A Na'vi Reference Grammar

Offline Kamean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2011, 04:59:46 pm »
Irayo Pawlur. :)
Tse'a ngal ke'ut a krr fra'uti kame.


Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2011, 05:28:12 pm »
you know, I remember that being in NiaN but i have never seen the canon source for that. Followup perhaps is in order.

Canon ("A Collection").

I know my grammar is a little imposing, but it does have an index with clickable page numbers.

oh thank you! I must bookmark Horen Lì'fyayä leNa'vi now...;D

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Offline Alyara Arati

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2011, 05:52:57 pm »
Quote
But if it's first person ("I wish that . . ."), the best way is just to use the adverb nìrangal.

I thought nìrangal was used to express a wish contrary to fact only. ???
And as always, irayo Pawlur; I was just struggling with rangal and tsnì vs. futa last night, actually. :-X
« Last Edit: August 18, 2011, 05:55:38 pm by Alyara Arati »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2011, 06:10:09 pm »
arent ALL wishes contrary to fact? ???

the thing about all this that was new to me was the intransitivity of rangal and its proper use with tsnì. i knew that "nìrangal X" was a way to say "I wish X" or "if only X"

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2011, 06:16:46 pm »
arent ALL wishes contrary to fact? ???

the thing about all this that was new to me was the intransitivity of rangal and its proper use with tsnì. i knew that "nìrangal X" was a way to say "I wish X" or "if only X"

"We wish you a merry Christmas and a happy New Year..."  When a thing hasn't happened yet, you can wish that it turn out well, kefyak? :-\
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2011, 06:51:31 pm »
oh. the future. sure why not

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2011, 12:26:56 am »
Thus translating nìrangal better as if only.

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2011, 01:00:10 am »
I know my grammar is a little imposing, but it does have an index with clickable page numbers.
Not imposing, my friend, very useful only ;)

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2011, 07:28:47 am »
Thus translating nìrangal better as if only.



but Paul in the OP basically just said the best way to translate "I wish..." is "Nìrangal..."

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2011, 08:39:13 pm »
Maybe he was just looking at the semantic meaning behind a wish? "if only" is just another way of saying "I wish" in some contexts... :-\
This is very sad only.

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 01:44:10 am »
I know that nìrangal is to be used for the wishes that are impossible to achieve, from the viewpoint of the speaker. So the translation "If only..." looks best to me.
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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2011, 10:48:53 am »
I know that nìrangal is to be used for the wishes that are impossible to achieve, from the viewpoint of the speaker. So the translation "If only..." looks best to me.


so by this, to say "I wish [event that takes place in the future]" since anything can happen, it is possible for the wish to be true or false... would that then be translated as "I want..."?


Canon source about nìrangal (as posted by wm.annis on the previous page):
Quote from: Paul Frommer on March 14, 2010
“I wish” or “Oh that . . .” is nìrangal (rangal ‘wish’ v.) followed by the present imperfective subjunctive –irv- for present counterfactuals or the present perfective subjunctive –ilv- for past counterfactuals.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 10:51:38 am by Tirea Aean »

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Offline Tanri

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2011, 12:58:47 pm »
I know that nìrangal is to be used for the wishes that are impossible to achieve, from the viewpoint of the speaker. So the translation "If only..." looks best to me.
so by this, to say "I wish [event that takes place in the future]" since anything can happen, it is possible for the wish to be true or false... would that then be translated as "I want..."?
I don't think so. "wish" and "want" are completely different verbs.
Agree with Karyu Pawl about counterfactuality of wishes, this is out of a question, but I remember from some source (beyond the boundaries of my memory), that little distinction between rangal and nìrangal, as in:
Oe rangal tsnì slivu tsulfätu lì’fyayä leNa’vi - "Wish I become master of the Na’vi language." - counterfactual, but can happen, at least in the distant future. :D
Nìrangal oe tsirvun fivrrfen Eywa’evengit. - "Wish I could visit Pandora" or "If only I could visit Pandora"- counterfactual as well, and clearly will never happen.
I will try to find details.

Edit:
Horen leNa’vi, 6.8.2:
Quote
Nìrangal. Unrealizable wishes use the adverb nìrangal followed by the imperfective subjunctive to indicate an unattainable wish in the present, with the perfective subjunctive for an unattainable wish in the past. This can be expressed in English with phrases like, “if only” or “I wish,” nìrangal lirvu oeyä frrnenur lora sanhì I wish my children had pretty stars, nìrangal oel tslilvam nì’ul if only I had understood more.
Navi in a Nutshell 2.8, 5.4.1:
Quote
Tip:  Nìrangal is used to express unattainable wishes, or at least wishes that
considers unattainable (If only; oh that; etc) and only takes <ilv> or <irv>.  
In our language summary (in Czech), the notice about nìrangal appeared long time before March 2011, from this time we started logging changes. It appears like something from ancient Na’vi. ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2011, 01:39:56 pm by Tanri »
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2011, 01:56:53 pm »
unattainable wishes... so what about the attainable ones? does an "attainable wish" exist? if so, then how does one convey that in Na'vi if the only ways to say I wish and if only are for unattainables?

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Re: confirmation on use of rangal
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2011, 03:44:52 am »
Nìawnomum, attainable wishes can be expressed with rangal.  Also, to quote NiaN:

Quote from: NiaN Chapter 5.4
[The <iv> infix] is also used to express a wish or hope in the future: ‘<Iv>ong Na’vi! Let Na’vi bloom!

The <iv> infix can be another way to express attainable wishes, in a more hopeful manner.

If I'm not mistaken, nìrangal implies that an event is not taking place or impossible to occur in the future or present, knowing how it can only take <iv>, <ilv> or <irv>.

In English, "I wish" can be vague as it translates mainly as rangal oe or a little less accurately nìrangal, but "if only" is much less vague, translating only as nìrangal.

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