Author Topic: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct  (Read 1819 times)

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Offline Prrton

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« Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« on: February 23, 2010, 06:06:07 pm »

Quote from: Prrton

...Is this correct? :

   Oeru ke tsun livam ke'u lor to Eywa'evengä na'ring a lew säpoli fa prrwll,
   kxawm mungwrr fìkifkey a lew säpìyevi fa fpom sì lì'fya leNa'vi.

Quote from: K. Pawl
Very fine.

Only one suggestion...

The verb säpìyevi: Why subjunctive? Why not simply säpìyi?

Argument in favor of the subjunctive: It's a world that MIGHT soon cover itself . . . etc.

Arguments in favor of the indicative:

(1) Your translation seems to indicate you're thinking of a world that WILL soon cover itself . . . etc.
(2) I like the clear parallelism between säpoli and säpìyi.
(3) The indicative is one syllable shorter.

So I'm somewhat more in favor of the indicative, säpìyi. But I think you could justify either version. Your call...

Notes:

Oeri/oeru is often a toss-up. With "lam," though, I think the dative is marginally better, since it's natural for "seem" to take the dative:

    "It seems to me . . . " But you could make a case for oeri as well.

The syntax of comparatives is perhaps a bit unusual.

To say "A is adj-er than B," you simply say "A to B lu adj."

Example: Po to oe lu sìltsan. (not "sìltsan nì'ul")

No "comparative degree" of the adjective is used.

Cf. Mandarin:

Ta bi wo hao.


Note on notes: For those of you who'll likely be curious... any context-sensitive effect that Altaic word order might have on the superiority of A over B is still being mulled over.  ;)


And. If this example seems "backwards" to you compared to the « A to B » example in the notes, it's probably the semantics of « ke'u » in this context messing with your head. It certainly messed with mine plenty.
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Offline roger

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2010, 06:31:41 pm »
I like oeri. "Oeru" seems too European.

Question: is frato "than all", or is it "most"? If "than all", does that mean that to can also be a suffix, A B-to?

Offline Prrton

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2010, 06:55:01 pm »
I like oeri. "Oeru" seems too European.

Question: is frato "than all", or is it "most"? If "than all", does that mean that to can also be a suffix, A B-to?

I think the oeRI, might be our Japanese accent, though.  ;)

I don't know, but when I hear about the Altaic issue, I'll ask. I would GUESS that « -to » might yield "most". That would be convenient, but « swey » and « 'e'al » lead me to believe that it may not be that simple. Especially « 'e'al »...

What does « A to Ä swey lu » mean? Anything? K.omum nìwotx.  :-\

Offline roger

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2010, 07:21:45 pm »
You can't use "worst" or "best" with "than" either. We have other words like that in English. "Unique", for example. "More unique" is like "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others". Or "my most favorite". And F used sìltsan in his example, so I think we can assume that swey isn't intended to be suppletive for the comparative.

Offline Prrton

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2010, 07:31:36 pm »
You can't use "worst" or "best" with "than" either. We have other words like that in English. "Unique", for example. "More unique" is like "All people are equal, but some are more equal than others". Or "my most favorite". And F used sìltsan in his example, so I think we can assume that swey isn't intended to be suppletive for the comparative.

I realize it's not intended, but I'm curious as to the exact derivation and to know if ALL of the adjectives have "irregular" forms for the superlative (pos/neg). In order to "resolve" it for myself, I've been also thinking of « swey » as "optimal", but what are « lor, sevin, kawng, snumina, apxa, & lehrrap » in the superlative. That's actually what I want to know.

Offline roger

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2010, 07:34:44 pm »
Tsole’a syeptutet atsawl frato mìsìrey.

"(and we) saw the biggest Trapper I've ever seen"  (lit., "big(ger) than every(thing) in (my) life")

It's not unusual for a language to lack special superlative forms. For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2010, 07:37:48 pm »
For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
I'm getting that on a bumper sticker.

Offline Plumps

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2010, 09:01:32 pm »
I was waiting for that information :)
Thanks for sharing!

Offline Skyinou

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2010, 03:53:58 am »
For Na'vi we don't yet know, of course.
I have two questions. I quoted this to say I know there is probably not a certain answer, but thinking is good for the brain  ;D

- About " 'awve", isn't this kind of superlative?
" 'aw" being not an adjective is a problem (but numbers act like adjectives) and it's probably more an exception than a rule, as many languages have special words for "first, second, etc..."

- Can we use the superlative, if it exists, alone? If someone ask our great Karyu about superlative, maybe he can ask about this too?
The best singer. // The best.
Irayo!

But as Roger said, it is possible to not have superlative,
And don't you find it more beautiful? Having to make good comparison and not just saying "the most" of something.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2010, 06:05:01 am by Skyinou »
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Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2010, 12:36:05 pm »
Despite "First" in English using a superlative looking ending, it is in fact an ordinal and not a superlative.  Superlative implies there is others of a certain class of something, but the superlative is declaring something is the most of that.  First isn't the "Most one" because there aren't degrees of being one.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2010, 01:32:19 am »
Despite "First" in English using a superlative looking ending, it is in fact an ordinal and not a superlative.  Superlative implies there is others of a certain class of something, but the superlative is declaring something is the most of that.  First isn't the "Most one" because there aren't degrees of being one.

But, Tsmukan Skyinou is correct that "first" or "number one" is often used to form the superlative. That's the way it works in Japanese. You just stick 一番 (ichi-ban = "number 1") in front of the adjective and that's the superlative.

大きい家、ōkii ie, "a/the big house"
一番大きい家、ichi-ban ōkii ie, "the biggest house"

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2010, 01:50:46 am »
Ke lu oe fwa ke mllte...  But we also know that Karyu Pawl did not draw on Japanese directly as part of his influences.  I'm sure something similar exists in other languages too.  We do also have specific superlative words at this point as well.  That doesn't mean they aren't exceptions, but we don't have a whole lot of examples to draw on.

The question I was responding to wasn't if 'awve could be used to form a superlative, it was if it was a superlative, which I still hold that it is not.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: « Prrwll » = "moss" & the comparative « to » construct
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2010, 11:31:34 pm »

The question I was responding to wasn't if 'awve could be used to form a superlative, it was if it was a superlative, which I still hold that it is not.

Tsat nìteng mllte.

 

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