Author Topic: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »  (Read 4014 times)

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Offline roger

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2010, 01:51:45 am »
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.

Kaltxì ma roger !

Why are you using a double subjunctive ? Is simply oe nerume fte tsun pivlltxe nìNa'vi correct ?

I think generally fte + sjv ≈ infinitive. "I learn in order that I may be able to speak", not *"I learn in order that I can speak". That is, the goal of the learning is being able to speak, but you won't necessarily be successful. You can still say oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe nìNa'vi even if the end result is oe ke tsolun pivlltxe nìNa'vi.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 01:57:05 am by roger »

Offline roger

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #41 on: February 23, 2010, 01:56:14 am »
Of course, there's always oe nerume lì'fyat Na'viyä.

Offline Prrton

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #42 on: February 26, 2010, 01:44:40 am »
Oel nerume fya'ot a tsivun pivlltxe nìNavi.

Oe nerume fte tsivun pivlltxe NìNavi.

I agree that these both sound like the most *Na'vi* way to say this, the 2nd being the "even more native" approach.

I don't think that that subjunctive is absolutely required here on « tsun », but I'd probably use it the same way myself.

Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive. I'm not completely sure why, but that's what it *feels* like to me. Na'vi also seems to like « fko » more than English likes "one", but it doesn't seem required (strongly indicated) in this particular scenario to me.

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #43 on: February 26, 2010, 02:04:27 am »
Damn me and my English only knowledge.  After beating my head around trying to figure out why nobody else seemed to like my way, it finally occurred to me that it may just have been I was going after how it is said in English would not be how it is said in other languages.  (And google search agrees that "learn how to X" is used far more than "learn so that X" in English, with the latter referring to indirect effects of the learning rather than direct effects.)

It would be interesting to hear Karyu Pawl's thoughts on this, but IMO it's something relatively unimportant at this point since it's just picking up details of the best way to say something we know rather than how to say something we don't.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Skyinou

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #44 on: February 26, 2010, 05:57:31 am »
I hunt to live.
I learn to speak.

If those two sentences are correct and constructed the same way, it should be "learn so that (I can) speak"?

Quote from:  Prrton
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive..
That's often use in french with "pouvoir = can = tsun" being infinitive (when we wonder about "iv" being able to make a verb infinitive), but in english it seems a little weird.
"[...]pour pouvoir parler[...]" => "[...]so that I can speak[...]"

Then it probably isn't subjonctive if "iv" can not make an infinitive.  :P
(But once again we need more more mooooooooore  ;D )
Let's rock with The Tanners!

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #45 on: February 26, 2010, 07:43:47 am »
Often feel *compelled* to use « tsun » after « fte » and just as often again to put it in the subjunctive. I'm not completely sure why, but that's what it *feels* like to me. Na'vi also seems to like « fko » more than English likes "one", but it doesn't seem required (strongly indicated) in this particular scenario to me.

Ma aysute sì aysutean, werìntu ayngengaru ohel li'fyati leNa'vi, a lu li'fya le'ampi'it le'efu'it.

  - Eri

Offline Prrton

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #46 on: March 01, 2010, 06:02:16 pm »
I've recently learned (but don't have any documentation to show  :-\ ) that "ALL of the verbal infixes for EVERYTHING EXCEPT" the attachment function of -iv- after « new, tsun, zene » etc. "are OPTIONAL". I was kind of shocked, but after I thought about it a second it made sense based on K. Pawl's Mandarin, etc.

So, « Trram hu Tsu'tey kä kip senge na'rìngä fte tsun tivaron yerikit. » is completely correct.

EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out! There's a PARTY in my left cortex (oh and now it's in the right one too)!! Surely this will baffle many, but it makes Na'vi much more interesting and accessible to speakers of languages that commonly do this (and simultaneously lowers the barrier of entry for new learners for whom Na'vi will be their second language).

There is only ONE infix that MUST be learned to get going (-iv-). And for those who WANT to INITIALLY think of it as an IndoEuropean infinitive, go right ahead !!

         Häle(frìkìn)luya!

   Nawma Sa'nok  >>>  ;D

PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay.  ;)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2010, 06:08:23 pm by Prrton »

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #47 on: March 01, 2010, 07:04:51 pm »
I assume that äp, eyk and us are also exceptions since they change the nature of the verb.  This is sort of how I've been using Na'vi for awhile actually, and it seemed like we were getting that hint from Paul for awhile.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #48 on: March 01, 2010, 11:36:33 pm »
I assume that äp, eyk and us are also exceptions since they change the nature of the verb.  This is sort of how I've been using Na'vi for awhile actually, and it seemed like we were getting that hint from Paul for awhile.

Yes. You're right. Nìkeatìpawm. The "pre-first" things are different and more radically change the meanings, so when they are needed, they're not optional.

   ;D

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2010, 08:46:25 am »
... didn't we already know that?

Quote from: Frommer via Language Log
First-position infixes indicate tense, aspect, or mood; there are also participial and reflexive infixes in this position, the latter being in “pre-first” position so it can co-occur with other first-position infixes. Second-position infixes indicate speaker attitude—positive orientation, negative orientation, or uncertainty/indirect knowledge. Many of these infixes are optional on the sentence level. (In discourse, however, overt indication of tense or aspect may be required.)

Wikibooks has been saying for a while (based on the above quote, I assume) that tense and aspect can be omitted when understood from context.  I've seen various people assert (based on what, I'm not sure - maybe movie dialog?) that the formality infix can be used initially and then dropped subsequently.  And we know that positive/negative infixes aren't required to express a positive/negative orientation: c.f. nga yawne lu oer.

So the new bit here is that this also applies to the uncertainty infix <ats> and the non-modal uses of <iv> (optative, fte, txo, tsni).  Wrt <ats>, it seems kind of obvious that you can express uncertainty without explicitly marking the verb, given that we have the adverb kxawm.  Or maybe that's not so obvious?

Wrt <iv>, I think we still don't understand this morpheme very well, and I'm not sure this clears it up much.  We know the optative use is optional, and Frommer's email from Feb 15 makes it clear that the forms with (optative) and without (imperative) are equivalent, at least in "modern Na'vi".  As for fte, txo, and tsni, they seem to me like they're similar enough in form and style to new, tsun, and zene that the "attachment" function still requires <iv> in those cases, and unfortunately your description of your recent learning doesn't give us enough to know for sure.

On the other hand...

Quote from: Prrton's left cortex
EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out!

Having this as an explicitly stated principle would be a very, very valuable thing to have.  I suspect it applies to much, much more than the mechanics of verbal infixes.  It relates to Na'vi as a pro-drop language, for example.  We've certainly seen this principle in action many, many times, so it wouldn't surprise me in the least if it were broadly true of the language as a whole.  But before making a claim that strong, I'd want to see it from The Man himself, just so that we're all clear about it.  It's a pretty big gun, and I'd want it to be fully cocked before we go around shooting it off.

If it were true, then I'd even go so far as to say that the pre-first infixes are ALSO optional, if they can be understood from context.  Which may not be often, but could certainly happen:

    Q: Oel sngeykirvä'i set tìkangkemit srak?  I should be beginning the work now, yes?
    A: Sngä'i.  Begin.

The latter use of sngä'i is strictly speaking "wrong", as the implied sentence is you begin the work which would require the causative version of the verb.  But under the principle of EVERYTHING that can be understood from context can be left out! then it's clear from context that A is saying you begin the work, not the work begins, so all that's needed is the bare verbal root "begin"!

(Actually, in this example, it's probably ambiguous whether A is saying you begin or the work begins.  Either might be intended, and both have the same meaning in this case, so I think here you have an example of grammatically acceptable ambiguity - which is a similar, but different, principle from grammatically acceptable elision of contextually implied elements.  But I think you get my point anyway, srak?)



Ma Prrton, I strongly suggest you consider carefully exactly what it is that you have recently learned, and then make a new top-level post explaining it as well as you can.  Even if you can't quote sources directly, please paraphrase as well and as closely as you can.  I think we all stand to benefit from it, and no matter what the learning is, it would benefit from a separate post.

  - Eri
« Last Edit: March 02, 2010, 08:55:12 am by Erimeyz »

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #50 on: March 02, 2010, 08:53:48 am »
... and in case I didn't make it clear, regardless of my nitpicking I still take the broad point of your message, and indeed my cortices ring with the sound of merry-making.

Oops, looks like we're out of beer over at my place.  Mind if we drop by and crash your party?

Got any cheese dip?

  - Eri

Offline Erimeyz

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #51 on: March 02, 2010, 09:44:44 am »
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay;)

You misspelled "heresy".

;)

Offline roger

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #52 on: March 02, 2010, 05:08:44 pm »
PS: If anyone feels that this can be moved to a more main topic without proper documentation, then please, move away. I'm just not prepared to do that. One is apt to smite me for hearsay;)

You misspelled "heresy".

;)


I think that's intentional!

Offline roger

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #53 on: March 02, 2010, 05:11:33 pm »
It would be nice if <ac> were grammatically required in a few cases the way <iv> is. We'll see; I don't think it's well worked out yet.

Offline Prrton

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Re: SCORE! (1) the verb "to use" + (2) more detail on « teya si »
« Reply #54 on: March 02, 2010, 07:46:51 pm »

Ma Prrton, I strongly suggest you consider carefully exactly what it is that you have recently learned, and then make a new top-level post explaining it as well as you can.  Even if you can't quote sources directly, please paraphrase as well and as closely as you can.  I think we all stand to benefit from it, and no matter what the learning is, it would benefit from a separate post.

  - Eri


I heard from a bird that perhaps someone else might be doing this soon ENOUGH, so I'm not going to make any moves.  ;)

 

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