Author Topic: Txe'lanit Hivawl...  (Read 12528 times)

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Offline Prrton

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #60 on: June 20, 2010, 02:36:05 pm »
Imoh °144 should be only °144 when it is really used and spoken as zamtsìvosìng in its context.

That is precisely the purpose of º as originally posted in this topic... to get the reader to understand that º144 is the Na'vi octal number «zamtsìvosìng» and should be pronounced and said in one's head that way and that it only has a decimal value of "100".

You and your friends are planning a big Na'vi meet-up. You discuss in Na'vi over e-mail that you need « º144a tseng fte º144a txìm tuteyä a144º tsivun hiveyn » during the meeting. But, when you call the equipment rental agency and speak in "decimal" you order ONLY 100 chairs to be delivered in time for the meet-up.

  KEFYAK?  ;)

BTW, if you're on Mac, the « º » is ‘option-0’ on a US or US Extended keyboard layout. It's been that way for 20+ years.

Offline 'eylan na'viyä

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #61 on: June 20, 2010, 05:42:40 pm »
Imoh °144 should be only °144 when it is really used and spoken as zamtsìvosìng in its context.

That is precisely the purpose of º as originally posted in this topic... to get the reader to understand that º144 is the Na'vi octal number «zamtsìvosìng» and should be pronounced and said in one's head that way and that it only has a decimal value of "100".

You and your friends are planning a big Na'vi meet-up. You discuss in Na'vi over e-mail that you need « º144a tseng fte º144a txìm tuteyä a144º tsivun hiveyn » during the meeting. But, when you call the equipment rental agency and speak in "decimal" you order ONLY 100 chairs to be delivered in time for the meet-up.

  KEFYAK?  ;)

Thats true but my point was that there is also a difference between the human OKTAL notation and the Na'vi notation(which is not only octal but also respects the context and intension of the number from the Na'vi side)
The most obvious point is that when speaking you tend to use even numbers but these are different between both systems:

English discussion:
if you are looking for a suitable campsite, i think you'd use 100 in discussions because it doesn't matter if it are some more or less/95 or 105 but when you are going to pay you pay for exactly 95 or 105 people.

Na'vi discussion:
txo fwew sìltsana: tseng a tsun fko hiveyn tuteyä a140°(=96) fko sivar °140(=96) tup °144(=100) fu °134(=92=) taluna tsat ke tsrivanten. Fko "pay" krr a fko sar °144 fu °134 "exactly"

When it is about exact amounts 
100 = 0144 = 0o144 = °144 ;                                                             °140 = 0o140 = 0140 = 96
one hundred = octal one four four = octal one four four = zamtsìvosìng;    zamtsìvol = octal one four zero = octal one four zero = ninety six
but when it is only about a rough estimation
100 = 0144 = 0o144 "=" °140 ;                                                   °140 = 0o140 = 0140 "=" 100
hundred =  octal one four four = octal one four four "=" zamtsìvol;    zamtsìvol = octal one four zero = octal one four zero "=" hundred

100/96, 0144/0140 and 0o144/0o140 are human notations for human things, °144/°140 is a human notation for a Na'vi thing.

The other problem beside translating even numbers is that in english/math there are constructions that are unpractical to speak an exist (almost)only in written form.

1*10^2 = 01,44 * 010^02 = 0o1,44 * 0o10^0o2 = ---/...°144...
one times ten to the power of two = (nobody wants to speak that) = (nobody wants to speak that) "=" fya'o a fko tsun pamrel sivi holpxay mì ftia sawtuteyä holpxayä. nìn fìtsenge. fìholpxay slu zamtsìvosìng.

I guess i now hit the limit of complexity for this topic ;)

Offline Kä'eng

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #62 on: June 20, 2010, 05:56:27 pm »
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.

Ma Prrton, ngal serar a fìrelur (º) syaw fkol san U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR. Keteng lu rel (°) a syaw fkol san U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN. (Tsarel lam hì'ia nì'ul; tse'a merelit 'awsiteng: º°) Perel lu eyawr?
Ma evi, ke'u ke lu prrte' to fwa sim tuteot ayawne.
Slä txo tuteo fmi 'ivampi ngat ro seng, fu nìfya'o, a 'eykefu ngati vä', tsakem ke lu sìltsan.
Tsaw lu ngeyä tokx! Kawtu ke tsun nìmuiä 'ivampi ngat txo ngal ke new tsakemit.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #63 on: June 20, 2010, 06:23:00 pm »
Na’vi octal numbers should be marked with a small elevated circle to indicate the appropriate value based on «vol». The raised « º » is the same symbol used for “degrees” in many conventions on Earth.

Ma Prrton, ngal serar a fìrelur (º) syaw fkol san U+00BA MASCULINE ORDINAL INDICATOR. Keteng lu rel (°) a syaw fkol san U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN. (Tsarel lam hì'ia nì'ul; tse'a merelit 'awsiteng: º°) Perel lu eyawr?

'O'! Tewti! Eltur tìtxen soli. Fìtìketeng oeru ke larmu law kaw'it. Fkol nume 'uoti amip fratrr! Irayo!

Oel fpìl futa tsamefnel tsun tivam niteng nì'eng*. Kxawm tsaw a lu hì'i nì'ul swey latsu... Slä oe ke lu pe'unyu. ;)

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #64 on: June 20, 2010, 07:04:07 pm »
Ma Prrton, kxawm nga tsatsun tsive'a mì upxare ta Karyu ulte fìfya olomun eyawra relit ;) Txo ngal molunge tsat ta tsa'upxare, eyawr lu san º sìk (U+00BA), kefyak?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline Prrton

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #65 on: June 20, 2010, 07:43:17 pm »
Ma Prrton, kxawm nga tsatsun tsive'a mì upxare ta Karyu ulte fìfya olomun eyawra relit ;) Txo ngal molunge tsat ta tsa'upxare, eyawr lu san º sìk (U+00BA), kefyak?

 :D

Skxakep tsatìketeng por ke law latsu oeto! Ngian, tsun pivawm ftxey tí'efumì feyä tsranten fuke. Oel fpìl futa lolu oe tsa'awpo a nì'awve tsarelit fwolew sì rolun fa eltu lefngap fte por fpive'.

Zene fko pivey nì'it nìmun.

Irayo, ma tsmukan! Ngeyä kanua eltu oeru yawne leiu nìwotx!

M.'U.: Nìngay fìtìketeng ke lam oer fwa lu 'uo a fìtxan tsranten taluna fa menari letrrtrr ke tsun ayalo apxay nìftue pive'un futa perel lu fìfya tengkrr relpe lu tsafay... kefyak?

       
« Last Edit: June 20, 2010, 09:03:16 pm by Prrton »

Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #66 on: June 20, 2010, 09:25:15 pm »
I like 0o, but not 0 so much. I like degree sign the most...I just edited my custom na'vi layout to include a degree sign for this exact reason. Just me, but I would rather see 0o144 than 0144... to me 0144 woudnt register as octal in my mind...something about 0o i like better. I believe that there is no question about the degree sign notation tho. the only prob about the deg sign is that it is not one of the face buttons on a standard keyboard, so making a custom layout, (personally because I like to push one button and get one character out, not push like five buttons just to get a measly degree sign out) is necessary. again, I uploaded my kb for you windows users out there who care to try it out.

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #67 on: June 23, 2010, 10:51:17 am »
I am disappointed. I wish I weren't, but I am. I don't think that Frommer here gave as much thought as he could have to the Alpha Centauri system and how it would affect lighting. Also, he's been inconsistent with other people who've worked on the film. Here's a quote from Leri Greer at Weta:

Quote
I actually wrote about how it causes a particular sky coloration across the visible spectrum at moments of pure dusk. And the Na'vi, depending on what elevation they live at (sea level versus higher altitudes), perceive a distinct color in narrow band at the horizon at that moment. They identify themselves, and signify in their markings, with this color. Which helps other Na'vi quickly discern at a distance what/where they are from, or what they are likely to be like (fishermen, high plains, skyriders, etc.). That pure dusk "color," combined with their other predominant color markings lets you also know how they relate to Eywa as a "religion" versus Eywa as a physical reality. And during ceremonial gatherings you can "read" a Na'vi by how they mark themselves with dyes, muds, and paints. And the environment and day/night cycle is directly responsible for the development of this social expression behavior. Again, this was an internal idea to help us design things at Weta Workshop, it's hard to say how much filtered upward to the larger production.

And here's a link to a wikipedia article, which I've reproduced here: Link

Quote
An observer on the hypothetical planet would notice a change in orientation to VLBI reference points commensurate with the binary orbit periodicity plus or minus any local effects such as precession or nutation. Assuming this hypothetical planet had a low orbital inclination with respect to the mutual orbit of Alpha Centauri A and B, then the secondary star would start beside the primary at 'stellar' conjunction. Half the period later, at 'stellar' opposition, both stars would be opposite each other in the sky. Then, for about half the planetary year the appearance of the night sky would be a darker blue — similar to the sky during totality at any total solar eclipse. Humans could easily walk around and clearly see the surrounding terrain. Also reading a book would be quite possible without any artificial light.[84] After another half period in the stellar orbit, the stars would complete their orbital cycle and return to the next stellar conjunction, and the familiar Earth-like day and night cycle would return.

And here's a quote from the ASG: "Complete darkness is rare on Pandora. THe large moon orbits a gas giant planet that in turn orbits a star with a stellar companion. Because of this unusual arrangment, most of Pandora's nights have some illumination; fully dark nights are few and far between." This, taken into account with the unknown rotation speed of the planet (which, I assume, Pandora is aligned to, as our moon is - but this isn't necessarily the case), would certainly result in different words for different times of nights that are relative to the kind of night that is or will occur. Polyphemus is stated as having a "fast rotation", which might mean that the days may not last long enough to have all of these distinctions for twilight.

I'm not stating I'm not excited by the other stuff. I just find this disappointing, is all.

Offline Rain

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #68 on: June 23, 2010, 11:12:27 am »
I guess that's to be expected when two or more sources don't cross-check with each other. As far as Lery Greer's comment goes, that's an awful lot of details to put in a movie, especially when the whole thing is like a big shot of overstimulation on LSD. In short, nobody but someone with a degree in cosmology would have noticed the sky colouration, just like nobody but someone with a PHd in Anthropology and Sociology would notice or try to put meaning to the color markings. This is, after all the average person we're talking about, and they barely understand why their own culture functions or how.

I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.

**I am not putting anybody down, I'm just being an English Lit major.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #69 on: June 23, 2010, 11:26:36 am »
I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.
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Offline Taronyu

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #70 on: June 23, 2010, 11:48:28 am »
I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.

I agree with this sentiment.

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #71 on: June 23, 2010, 11:50:48 am »
As for the example: Tsavur oeyä eltur tìtxen soli.

Considering the free word order, wouldn't it be kinda wierd to put a genetive pronoun between two nouns? or is it rule for noun after genitive?

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #72 on: June 23, 2010, 11:55:57 am »
I think the tsa- prefix would preclude it taking a genitive so in this case I think it would be ok, in general though I agree that it would be ambiguous.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #73 on: June 23, 2010, 12:19:37 pm »

I am disappointed. I wish I weren't, but I am. I don't think that Frommer here gave as much thought as he could have to the Alpha Centauri system and how it would affect lighting. Also, he's been inconsistent with other people who've worked on the film...

I'm not stating I'm not excited by the other stuff. I just find this disappointing, is all.


Quote from: original posting
As seasons or other celestial mechanics effect Pandora, the points at which these events occur may also change. They are relative, not absolute. Parallels to eclipses or sudden changes in ambient light in the night might also occur. These things are unknown to us at this time.

Are you willing to wait for the next film to come out in how ever many years and pray that the word(s) is/are in the script, or Cameron to bless some scientist in optics publicly in the interim and that theoretical person in turn to make some kind of explicit confirmation regarding color theory on Pandora to find out if there is any Na'vi way to distinguish pinks and purples (which are so vibrant in the film)?

If you want to put that kind of burden on him as a specialist in linguistics you have a different social outlook on the world than I do.

If that kind of rigor is required for every term in the LEP, then good luck with the future of Na'vi.

However, I 100% support your right to be disappointed, and am very sorry that you are.


I'm saying you have a lot of extremely good points and I do have a working interest in Na'vi culture, Taronyu, but as far as getting all that information into the movie it would likely be a waste of time because nobody would notice it.

I don't know about Taronyu but, I agree with you about not being able to put it in the film, but it ought to be in the language, it seems weird to me for the Na'vi to only have word for the parts of their day/night/weird-stuff cycle that happens to be usable on earth.

I don't disagree with this at all, but the "weird-stuff cycle" was not in Avatar 2009 and the likelihood that all of the "theory" will ever make it into the franchise in the foreseeable future seems far-fetched to me.

I am the FIRST to agree that there is a tremendous amount of "convenience" in the vocabulary above, but it is derived to the extent possible based on things that are perceivable (extrapolate-able within reason) from the existing, viewable film.

K. Pawl was on the set a lot (and under NDA for years). In my book that gives him more experience and clout to be a filter for these things making sense in the bigger context than all of the other 3rd party writing and commentary that we might find to interpret for ourselves now after the NDAs have been partially lifted. Of course, theorize away. Without that none of this use of our time (even as a hobby) seems very interesting to me.

If the "weird-stuff cycle" becomes "reality" in the next (or some future) film then things can certainly change. And I'll be the first to vote that they do.

The script says that there is no "hair" on Pandora. Yet we have «nikre».



It's observable (not only on the heads of the Na'vi) in the film.

Language is a combination of theory (abstraction), rules, and practical concerns.

AND, if this (specific) vocabulary (or other) offends, then DON'T USE IT and it won't survive or be relevant. Such is the nature of all language (of which we are currently aware).

Offline Taronyu

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #74 on: June 23, 2010, 12:50:58 pm »
I saw that coming. But thank you for tolerating my disappointment. As an amateur astronomer and cosmologist, I just find this sort of thing so intensely interesting that I can't fully go along with the decision to apply terrestrial terms. But you're right - I won't use them, but I'll be in the minority - and that's alright. I hope the next few films illuminate more.

Maybe a few concessions: darker night, or a name for eclipses, would be cool. I'd probably settle for that.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #75 on: June 23, 2010, 12:57:29 pm »
I saw that coming. But thank you for tolerating my disappointment. As an amateur astronomer and cosmologist, I just find this sort of thing so intensely interesting that I can't fully go along with the decision to apply terrestrial terms. But you're right - I won't use them, but I'll be in the minority - and that's alright. I hope the next few films illuminate more.

Maybe a few concessions: darker night, or a name for eclipses, would be cool. I'd probably settle for that.

I think I see a bit of a pattern emerging here, I agree with this almost entirely, I'll probably still use them but will grumble to myself every time I do (blame the English-ness in me for not wanting to make a fuss and just to get on with it) although I think that a relatively large number of words for the "weird-stuff" would be good and could redeem the system.

And, similarly to Taronyu, I'm coming at this from the point of view of a will-be (3 years) physics student's point of view so this sort of thing annoys me.
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Offline Prrton

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #76 on: June 23, 2010, 01:08:21 pm »
I saw that coming. But thank you for tolerating my disappointment. As an amateur astronomer and cosmologist, I just find this sort of thing so intensely interesting that I can't fully go along with the decision to apply terrestrial terms. But you're right - I won't use them, but I'll be in the minority - and that's alright. I hope the next few films illuminate more.

Maybe a few concessions: darker night, or a name for eclipses, would be cool. I'd probably settle for that.

You are also as welcome as anyone else on the planet to work out the celestial mechanics and document the models of precisely what WOULD happen and send that along to him with the holes in the model(s) for where you believe new roots or compounded concepts would be appropriate. He's very respectful of any kind of scientific rigor and has a tremendous amount of respect for you (in linguistics and commitment to Na'vi). You could expand that to the astronomical/cosmological realm...

Now, if you end up spending 7 calendar days (and nights... on Earth) figuring out what all the light levels would be and when the seasons would change (and how that might be reconciled with Grace's "village life starts early" (or whatever the precise quote is (as translated into all the languages 'Rrtaka in which the film was shown)), and you get 3 new roots and 7 compounds, you'll have to to do the cost/benefit analysis for yourself.

Keep in mind that Grace is supposed to have been there for YEARS (whatever that is... ? ? ?) Welcome to our fiction (and its inevitable clash with our reality).

    ;)

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #77 on: June 23, 2010, 01:16:17 pm »
What do you say, Tìkawnga? Want to hash out Pandora's nightscape on Skype? :D

I think this might be fun...

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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #78 on: June 23, 2010, 01:27:03 pm »
What do you say, Tìkawnga? Want to hash out Pandora's nightscape on Skype? :D

I think this might be fun...

I'd like to, but I think my physics is a bit behind where it'd need to be. That said, with a few assumptions it probably wouldn't need much physics at all. Hmm... I'll think about it.  ;)
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Re: Txe'lanit Hivawl...
« Reply #79 on: June 23, 2010, 01:39:21 pm »
I suspect the reason that it is not more complex is that Frommer is a linguist.  He was brought onto Avatar to develop a language.  He can create linguistic elements, but beyond that (and even within that in some cases) he is not a source of Avatar canon.  So trying to design a complex system of the Pandora days and seasons is probably a bit beyond his scope, even if he wanted to sit down and try.  And if others had already thought of such thing, he may not know who it would be, or have access to them or said information.  Even if he did create something, it would not necessarily be canon.

The other way to look at it is the new words are poorly translated to English, using the closest earthly concept, while the Na'vi would understand the words and concepts diferently.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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