Author Topic: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"  (Read 1801 times)

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Offline Ftiafpi

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Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« on: March 12, 2010, 09:13:01 am »
In an email to me from Frommer regarding the GMA stuff I got this little tid-bit:

Quote from: Frommer
New oe mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.

Furia nì'Ìnglìsì pamrel sivi [pamrel si = 'write'], oeru txoa livu. Ke lu oer set krr atxan, ulte ke new kxeyey sivi.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 09:28:38 am by Ftiafpi »

Offline Lance R. Casey

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Re: Verb for "write"
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2010, 09:22:39 am »
Already revealed here, but there's something else to note: it is now certain that peng is (or can be) transitive.

// Lance R. Casey

Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2010, 09:37:03 am »
Oel frakrr fpamìl futa san peng sìk lu *transitive* :) Kxawm fì'ut oel tslolam ta tìralpeng leRuski :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2010, 05:01:19 pm »
Yay necropost!

So, it occurred to me...

Na'vi only has direct quotes....

Perhaps I don't understand the distinction, but wouldn't "New oe mengaru piveng futa ..." be an indirect quote?  Sure, it's not REALLY a quote because it's in the first person, but if you replaced oe with po, it would be an indirect quote (i think).

New po mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.

So is "oe" allowed with a transitive "peng" there but "po" not?
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2010, 05:48:38 pm »
Something else is interesting... It concerns the last part of the message
»… ulte ke new kxeyey sivi.«
And I don’t want to make a mistake. Is si here a verb of its own? I thought it would be an auxilary only.

Or would you tranlate this as I don’t want to err?

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2010, 06:05:30 pm »
If you were taking it as a verb on it's own, then "kxeyey" would be the subject and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense, let alone mean what you translated it as.  It is fulfilling its role as an auxiliary verb there based off kxeyey.
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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2010, 06:54:18 pm »
Yay necropost!

So, it occurred to me...

Na'vi only has direct quotes....

Perhaps I don't understand the distinction, but wouldn't "New oe mengaru piveng futa ..." be an indirect quote?  Sure, it's not REALLY a quote because it's in the first person, but if you replaced oe with po, it would be an indirect quote (i think).

New po mengaru piveng futa tìkangkemìri atxantsan mengeyä fpi "Trr Lefpom ma Amerika" oeru teya soli nìtxan.
So is "oe" allowed with a transitive "peng" there but "po" not?

The way I'm reading it, it comes across to me as a statement:  "I want to tell you that regarding your excellent work for Good Morning America, I was very happy" or "I want to tell you I was very happy about the excellent work you did regarding the GMA project."

Hence you could use po with it just the same and it would translate then as "He wants to tell..."
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2010, 06:59:00 pm »
It's a statement, sure, but it also seems to me like it's an indirect quote.  You could say it equally as 'He wants to tell you, "..."'.

If you replaced "Tell you" with "say", is it still a "statement" and not an "indirect quote"?  What about if you change "wants to" into "will" as in "He will say"...  If it's not an indirect quote, when does it become one?
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2010, 07:20:49 pm »
I see what your saying.  Hmm, personally for Frommer's sentence I would consider it just a statement.

If you changed "wants to" into "will" it sounds more to me like an indirect quote
"will say" again sounds like an indirect quote

Now that I'm thinking about it, isn't that why we have san...sìk?  For direct quotes only?  To me san x sìk seems like your setting whatever x is in stone.  If you are unsure of what was exactly said, or are just paraphrasing, wouldn't you say (in both English and Na'vi) the thing as a statement?

He said "you're a skxawng" means he literally said that you're a skxawng.
He said you're a moron means he said something like (or something which indicated to the speaker) that you're a moron.

Maybe ask about the possible distinction(s) in the next combining our efforts II email to Frommer?  It's definitely an interesting point.


Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2010, 07:26:39 pm »
Right, but Frommer has said that only direct speech is allowed.

Quote from: Paul Frommer
Suppose the sentence is, "Eytukan said he would go, but I don't believe him."

Everything converts to direct speech, so it would be:

Poltxe Eytukan san oe kayä sìk, slä oel pot ke spaw.

Quote from: roger
And it looks like only direct speech is allowed?
Right
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2010, 07:38:13 pm »
Perhaps he means that if you have san...sìk it's some type of relayed spoken quote (direct or indirect) and no san...sìk means it must be a statement?

Frommer's sentence makes a bit more sense to me this way if I translate peng as "inform"
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2010, 07:50:14 pm »
The fact that he took an indirect quote and said about it "Everything converts to direct speech" seems to imply it is not just if san...sìk is used, but the nature of how things are said.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2010, 09:01:34 pm »
I agree, that's why I like translating it as "inform" rather than "say" or "tell."

"I want to inform you of the following fact:  your excellent work on the GMA project fills me with joy."
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2010, 10:02:23 pm »
But you're taking some pretty heavy liberties with the translation there.  How you translate it doesn't change what the Na'vi says.

To be honest, I was hoping someone with some more linguistic knowledge than me might be able to cite something telling me my idea of what direct vs indirect speech was is all wrong and giving some new insight into linguistics.  I'd hate to add it to the list of questions for Frommer and have it be something stupid because it's something that any linguist would be able to answer.
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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2010, 12:16:17 am »
Isn't it also possible that since he is not actually saying it that the quote … unquote particles are not in use here? In comparison to Eytukan who actually said at one point "no dreamwalker shall be allowed to enter hometree". But since Frommer expresses a fictitious conversation and his words are not really uttered that san x sìk is not needed.

Then again, it's always possible that he just missed it. As he wrote at other instances, it's totally possible that he makes mistakes. And the second sentence says that he's in a hurry which is the reason he'll write in English rather than Na'vi to avoid mistakes...

Offline omängum fra'uti

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2010, 12:49:01 am »
That's a good point about him doing it quickly.  I once asked him about people sending him email in Na'vi, how well he can understand it.  As a footnote to the answer, he commented "Oel tel 'upxaret leNa'vi a krr, new oe nìtengfya pamrel sivi nì'eyng. Slä krr a nìNa'vi pamrel si oe, new oel futa upxare oeyä luke keyey livu nìwotx, fte eyawra sìkenongit tivìng suteru."  (And ironically, he sent me an email with a correction to that email a short while later.)

Possibly also relevant to this discussion is this little tidbit.

Quote from: Paul Frommer
Srake tsun oe fayupxaret tslivam nìftue? Tse . . . zene pivlltxe san pxìm tsafya lu sìk.
Can I understand these messages easily?  Well...  I must say "Often that way"

I bring that up because it's a similar construct to what I mentioned earlier...  A hypothetical dialog hanging off a speech word with a modal verb involved.  And it's something we'd say as an indirect quote (Though in first person it doesn't make a huge difference) in English, but he says it with a direct quote there in Na'vi.
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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2010, 02:23:12 am »
Quote
To be honest, I was hoping someone with some more linguistic knowledge than me might be able to cite something telling me my idea of what direct vs indirect speech was is all wrong and giving some new insight into linguistics.

Me too, I'm really curious about that sentence now.
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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2010, 05:34:26 am »
That's a good point about him doing it quickly.  I once asked him about people sending him email in Na'vi, how well he can understand it.  As a footnote to the answer, he commented "Oel tel 'upxaret leNa'vi a krr, new oe nìtengfya pamrel sivi nì'eyng. Slä krr a nìNa'vi pamrel si oe, new oel futa upxare oeyä luke keyey livu nìwotx, fte eyawra sìkenongit tivìng suteru."  (And ironically, he sent me an email with a correction to that email a short while later.)

Interesting - and is that which you give us here the corrected version? Or did that refer to another part of the mail?

I'm curious about the use of nì'eyng here - "I want to write answer-ly the same way" ???

NB: Otherwise that sentence could be added to the wiki canon page of sample sentences. I was asked recently whether there was such an attempt/project. The idea behind it was to see how Frommer uses certain words and to construct some kind of a paradigm for learners who rather go along the lines of existing sentences and change a word here and there before they are confident enough to build their own sentences.

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Re: Verb for "write" and transive "peng"
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2010, 06:04:42 am »
Nì'eyng is actually in the dictionary.  The translation would be something like "When I receive a message in Na'vi, I want to write the same way in response."  The correction was just a slight semantic correction to something else in the email, nothing grammatical or such.  (Specifically it was using 'u where the more specific kem worked better.)

As far as sample sentences, I'm actually working on a website (very slowly) with the intent of cataloging example usage of words, both Frommerian or otherwise.  The main idea I have is to include pronunciation, but the core concept is similar to what EanaEltu does, except more correct and saving sentences with references to used words.  So you can look up a word and then ask for sample sentences which use it, including derived and inflected forms.  But it will probably be awhile until I am at that stage.
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