Learning Na'vi Vocabulary: The Easy Way

Started by MuneTompaTaem, January 07, 2012, 11:48:01 AM

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Tìtstewan


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Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on March 20, 2013, 02:11:42 PM
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 20, 2013, 02:00:32 PM
...An alternative way to contact me is via email, which should be showing a learnnavi.org address.
FYI that I had tried the published work around prior to posting, but no joy.  And your profile has your email "hidden".  Hence why I went to "Plan C" and posted here.

Aww.  Now visible.  :)

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Okay, time for a bit of news concerning Tirea's "All Na'vi Vocabulary" course.

Audio
Audio has been missing from the memrise courses is audio, which is a disadvantage.  If you learn as I do, you end up saying the word (whether out loud or mentally).  This is dangerous, because you learn it how you think it might be pronounced, which may not be correct.  This is something which has been worrying me for a while about the memrise courses - because there is an issue concerning how we learn, and it's called the Law of Primacy:

"Primacy, the state of being first, often creates a strong, almost unshakable, impression. Things learned first create a strong impression in the mind that is difficult to erase. For the instructor, this means that what is taught must be right the first time. For the student, it means that learning must be right. "Unteaching" wrong first impressions is harder than teaching them right the first time. If, for example, a student learns a faulty technique, the instructor will have a difficult task correcting bad habits and "reteaching" correct ones."

Whether this applies to language, I'm not qualified to comment, but I'd feel more comfortable about learning things right first time than learning the words and then learning how they should sound.

There's been some discussion about how to add audio.  Of course, the most important thing is that the audio is as correct as can be reasonably managed, and I have a solution which I'm 99.99% certain that Tirea will approve of.  So, I'm pressing ahead with this.

I will be providing credit to those involved in due course, but only with their permission.

As of this evening, we have a small selection of colours and "colour" (sorry, I'm British!) with audio - and more will follow.  If you wish to assist with providing audio, then please get in contact with me via email (my address is now visible.)  What we require from those providing audio is reasonably accurate and clear pronunciation.

Testing - English Phrases
We have various English phrases which contain the Na'vi word being tested.  For example, "kaw'it" is defined as "at all, not at all (see ke...kaw'it not...at all)".  So, when memrise tests you, it will ask you to type the Na'vi for "at all, not at all (see ke...kaw'it not...at all)".  I will be tidying these up to remove the Na'vi from the English, though it means we'll be slightly different from what's in the dictionary.  I think that's a reasonable compromise as we shouldn't be giving the answer away like that!

Blue Elf

There's probably problem with "ke" - see this thread (not adverb, but particle. Probably)
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on March 24, 2013, 02:43:15 PM
There's probably problem with "ke" - see this thread (not adverb, but particle. Probably)
Srane, Palulukan Maktoyu Ta'lengean has pointed that out to me earlier this evening on IRC.  As normal, I'll wait for the final decision on this to make its way into the dictionary first before updating the course as I'm taking the LN.org dictionary data as being the definitive reference.

Irayo!

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 24, 2013, 05:08:39 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on March 24, 2013, 02:43:15 PM
There's probably problem with "ke" - see this thread (not adverb, but particle. Probably)
Srane, Palulukan Maktoyu Ta'lengean has pointed that out to me earlier this evening on IRC.  As normal, I'll wait for the final decision on this to make its way into the dictionary first before updating the course as I'm taking the LN.org dictionary data as being the definitive reference.

Irayo!
Tam. There was big discussion in dictionary thread, but no result yet.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Blue Elf

If memrise asks for "we (inclusive plural)", it accepts only ayoeng as a correct result. But awnga is correct too. Is it possible to set it as a synonym or change description that shortened form is not accepted as answer?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on March 31, 2013, 09:37:39 AM
If memrise asks for "we (inclusive plural)", it accepts only ayoeng as a correct result. But awnga is correct too. Is it possible to set it as a synonym or change description that shortened form is not accepted as answer?

Okay, ayoeng and awnga are now synonyms.

Blue Elf

#108
another mistake - tìfngunga' instead of tìfnunga'. Already corrected in dictionary thread.

Edit: please check entries for "well": one is sìltsan (adjective) and second is ramunong (noun). Seems that they are set as synonyms (not sure, but I think so), but of course they can't be because of different word type.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Taronyu Leleioae

This needs to be removed from Memrise.
181-200 group
lonataya = medusa. 

Quote from: Dictionary Changelog 12.893.....  "Also removed lonataya at Dr. Frommer's direction".


(Medusa is correctly defined as fpxafaw which is in the 81-100 group.)

Alyara Arati

If removing "lonataya" messes up the numbering, I'd suggest replacing it with one of the new words, like "frafya" which would not be out of a sequence.  Just my thought. :)
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on April 02, 2013, 01:33:00 PM
another mistake - tìfngunga' instead of tìfnunga'. Already corrected in dictionary thread.

Edit: please check entries for "well": one is sìltsan (adjective) and second is ramunong (noun). Seems that they are set as synonyms (not sure, but I think so), but of course they can't be because of different word type.
I'm at the UK minimeet at the moment, so I'm not doing updates to the memrise courses at the moment (hotel wireless isn't exactly great.)

As far as those synonyms - ITYM nìltsan not sìltsan.  They aren't explicitly set as synonyms, but because the English version is identical, memrise assumes that they are synonyms.  That behaviour can't be turned off.

Quote from: Taronyu Leleioae on April 02, 2013, 09:24:59 PM
This needs to be removed from Memrise.
181-200 group
lonataya = medusa. 
Quote from: Dictionary Changelog 12.893.....  "Also removed lonataya at Dr. Frommer's direction".
(Medusa is correctly defined as fpxafaw which is in the 81-100 group.)
I am aware of this, and I've covered it in previous postings.  As Alyara says, removing it messes up the numbering - the numbers are only there as titles to each level - they don't get automatically updated.  Not only that, but it also creates a level of 19 words, which, given the way memrise currently works causes interesting effects with the two-stage planting process.  So at the moment, I'm opting to leave it in.  I suggest anyone bothered by this sets this entry to "ignore".

The problem with adding words out of sequence is that some people have not gone through the entire course - but they're just learning the new words as they come along.  Adding a new word to level 10 in its place will just bury that word away from those folk.  This is definitely a situation where there's no answer which will make everyone happy. :(
level 10

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on April 05, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on April 02, 2013, 01:33:00 PM
another mistake - tìfngunga' instead of tìfnunga'. Already corrected in dictionary thread.

Edit: please check entries for "well": one is sìltsan (adjective) and second is ramunong (noun). Seems that they are set as synonyms (not sure, but I think so), but of course they can't be because of different word type.
I'm at the UK minimeet at the moment, so I'm not doing updates to the memrise courses at the moment (hotel wireless isn't exactly great.)

As far as those synonyms - ITYM nìltsan not sìltsan.  They aren't explicitly set as synonyms, but because the English version is identical, memrise assumes that they are synonyms.  That behaviour can't be turned off.
No, I really mean well/nìltsan (adj) and well/ramunong (n.) As I wrote, I'm not completely sure, but I think memrise asked for well and I wrote nìltsan, what was accepted, but at last moment I noticed it was marked as (n). I can't assure as I don't know in which stack ramunong is located. Is there way how to discover where is specific word located?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Plumps

Well (no pun intended :P ), you could always extend the definiton of ramunong to 'source of water' or something like that.

Mìftxele, how is tse defined in Memrise? That would be another instance of 'well'

Blue Elf

#114
Quote from: Plumps on April 06, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
Well (no pun intended :P ), you could always extend the definiton of ramunong to 'source of water' or something like that.

Mìftxele, how is tse defined in Memrise? That would be another instance of 'well'

IMO definitions are the same as in main dictionary. But what is extra for memrise is possibility to set words as synonyms.

EDIT 8th April: CONFIRMED - I was asked for "well (n.)", entered "nìltsan" - and it was accepted as a correct reply.
But it is not - ramunong is correct. Please them as no synonyms, and probably is good idea to check another words which contain "well" inside too
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Plumps on April 06, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
Well (no pun intended :P ), you could always extend the definiton of ramunong to 'source of water' or something like that.

Mìftxele, how is tse defined in Memrise? That would be another instance of 'well'

For most words, it is exactly what is in the dictionary.  There's only a few which have been subsequently edited - the "that"'s and a few to remove the Na'vi from the English (like sì).

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on April 06, 2013, 01:35:31 PM
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on April 05, 2013, 06:48:26 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on April 02, 2013, 01:33:00 PM
another mistake - tìfngunga' instead of tìfnunga'. Already corrected in dictionary thread.

Edit: please check entries for "well": one is sìltsan (adjective) and second is ramunong (noun). Seems that they are set as synonyms (not sure, but I think so), but of course they can't be because of different word type.
As far as those synonyms - ITYM nìltsan not sìltsan.  They aren't explicitly set as synonyms, but because the English version is identical, memrise assumes that they are synonyms.  That behaviour can't be turned off.
No, I really mean well/nìltsan (adj) and well/ramunong (n.) As I wrote, I'm not completely sure, but I think memrise asked for well and I wrote nìltsan, what was accepted, but at last moment I noticed it was marked as (n). I can't assure as I don't know in which stack ramunong is located. Is there way how to discover where is specific word located?
Yayayr!

Quote from: Blue Elf on April 06, 2013, 02:02:33 PM
Quote from: Plumps on April 06, 2013, 01:51:02 PM
Well (no pun intended :P ), you could always extend the definiton of ramunong to 'source of water' or something like that.

Mìftxele, how is tse defined in Memrise? That would be another instance of 'well'

IMO definitions are the same as in main dictionary. But what is extra for memrise is possibility to set words as synonyms.

EDIT 8th April: CONFIRMED - I was asked for "well (n.)", entered "nìltsan" - and it was accepted as a correct reply.
But it is not - ramunong is correct. Please them as no synonyms, and probably is good idea to check another words which contain "well" inside too
If two words have the exact same word in English, then memrise will behind the scenes create an automatic synonym that the course creator has no control over.  So:

nìltsan   well   adv.
ramunong   well   n.

will result in memrise automatically creating a synonym, accepting either Na'vi for the English version - even though the part of speech is different.  There is no setting to change this behaviour.  The only solution to this is that they must have dis-similar English words.  That is problematical, because you're potentially changing the meaning of the original Na'vi word.

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Okay, so updates to "All Na'vi Vocabulary" are:

-fìpothis one (person or thing)pn.
+fìpothis one person or thingpn.
-lapoother one (person or thing)pn.
+lapoother one person or thingpn.
-tìfngunga'quietadj.
+tìfnunga'quietadj.
+ketsranno matter, no matter what, whateveradj.,  conj.
+kangay sivalidate, confirmvin.
I have already made the changes to the words/definitions last night, and will soon add the last two to the course.

I have also updated the German version:

-tìfngunga'ruhigadj.
+tìfnunga'ruhigadj.

Blue Elf

#118
Quote
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on April 08, 2013, 05:27:58 PM
EDIT 8th April: CONFIRMED - I was asked for "well (n.)", entered "nìltsan" - and it was accepted as a correct reply.
But it is not - ramunong is correct. Please them as no synonyms, and probably is good idea to check another words which contain "well" inside too
If two words have the exact same word in English, then memrise will behind the scenes create an automatic synonym that the course creator has no control over.  So:

nìltsan   well   adv.
ramunong   well   n.

will result in memrise automatically creating a synonym, accepting either Na'vi for the English version - even though the part of speech is different.  There is no setting to change this behaviour.  The only solution to this is that they must have dis-similar English words.  That is problematical, because you're potentially changing the meaning of the original Na'vi word.
Too bad.... can be problem solved by definition change like this: ?
ramunong: [Ra."mu.noN] PF n. well -> well (source of water)
nìltsan: [nIl."tsan] PF adv. well - well (done in good manner)
Or match is found simply on first word? Does some extra character (like ; ) makes words different?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on April 09, 2013, 06:29:30 AM
Too bad.... can be problem solved by definition change like this: ?
ramunong: [Ra."mu.noN] PF n. well -> well (source of water)
nìltsan: [nIl."tsan] PF adv. well - well (done in good manner)
Or match is found simply on first word? Does some extra character (like ;) makes words different?
Yes, that will work, because memrise matches on the whole English phrase.  We have similar clarifications in the main dictionary too - maybe having these updates in the main dictionary too would be a good idea?  What do you think?

As for further audio, I now have a problem.  My referee (Neytiri Te Tskaha Mo'at'ite) is not going to be around for an uncertain period of time, which means I have currently lost the ability to ensure that the audio files are up to a standard which Tirea will approve.  Oe 'efängu keftxo nìtxan tsa'uteri 'a'awa aylunfpisì alahe.  I don't know whether Tirea is willing or able to step up to this yet.  (Tirea - if you're reading this, please let me know.)

I have a few more which have already been approved for upload, which are:  am'a, au, fmokx, fnawe', ftxavang, hiyìk, hona, 'ipu, keftxo, lenrra, lesnonrra, leso'ha, letwan, lewäte, lom, mawey, mowan, ngeyn, ngong, nìm, nitram, nrra, 'o' and ohakx.

For the future, I'll post again on this subject when there's more news.