Learning Na'vi Vocabulary: The Easy Way

[Blue Elf]

Kxeyey: hunting = tìtusaron, but audio sample says tìtaron

[Alyara Arati]

Kxeyey: hunting = tìtusaron, but audio sample says tìtaron

Probably because tìtusaron and tìtaron are synonyms.

[Tìtstewan]

Tìtusaron is the gerund form of taron.

Tìtusaron oeru sunu.
I like the hunting.

Tìtaron lolu txantsan.
The hunt was awesome.

[Tirea Aean]

Tìtusaron is the gerund form of taron.

Tìtusaron oeru sunu.
I like the hunting.

Tìtaron lolu txantsan.
The hunt was awesome.

Which would be a great thing, and way to explain it, except these official definitions:

tìtaron: [tɪ.'ta.ɾon] _PF n. hunting (derived from taron hunt)

tìtusaron: [tɪ.tu.'sa.ɾon] _PF n. hunting (derived from taron hunt)

(EDIT: These also confirmed on Dict-Na'vi.com by typing in tìtusaron. DOUBLE EDIT: tìtusaron doesn't appear to have its own entry there, probably because tì-<us> is productive)

Which indeed makes them synonyms. (I think what happened was, Pawl had used tìtaron somewhere to mean hunting, and tì-<us> gerunds weren't a thing yet, and/or it slipped his mind.)

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Culturally, it can be explained that hunting is such an important part of life for the Na'vi that it developed its own term, instead of having a gerund form I would assume though the <tì><us> form is still legal, even if it is not normally used.

[Tìtstewan]

Tìtusaron is the gerund form of taron. Tìtusaron oeru sunu. I like the hunting. Tìtaron lolu txantsan. The hunt was awesome. Which would be a great thing, and way to explain it, except these official definitions: tìtaron: [tɪ.'ta.ɾon] PF n. hunting (derived from taron hunt) tìtusaron: [tɪ.tu.'sa.ɾon] PF n. hunting (derived from taron hunt)

In German is a little difference:
Tìtaron = die Jagd
Tìtusaron = das Jagen

[Taronyu Leleioae]

I remember discussing this with Plumps a bit over a year ago in a discussion as I'd confused the german words for "the hunt", "the hunting", and "the hunted (game)".  There is a slight difference between english and german.  English being less precise.  Which I think is why it's confusing trying to discuss it in english.  Further, there is a slight different in usage imo between american vs british english.  It's common (or used to be) particularly with the sport of fox hunting.  "He has gone to the hunt." (with all it's pagentry and process).  Whereas here in the US, I've only heard the term "hunting" season.  Or... he has gone "hunting".  He is out "hunting".  When are you going "hunting"?

NOT...  When is the hunt?  (Which is correct, just rarely used at least here in New England except for the going out of fashion faux fox hunt ride.)  The only common usage I've experienced is defining a club such as the "rod and gun" or "hunt" club.

I wish I'd saved the conversation from my inbox, but I came away with the conclusion that "tìtaron" really meant the hunt as a process rather than hunting, and sätaron was more the actual action, a defined or measured event.  (The instrument.)  Whereas tìtusaron was the whole event in general.  This isn't definitive, obviously, just what I concluded.

Examples:  
I will be  the hunt.  (Action oriented.)
vs...  I am going hunting.  (more abstract)


Perhaps the question should be put to Karyu Pawl as a clarification in the next LEP submission.  Asking for a reclarification with tìtaron vs tìtusaron.  And maybe ask him to clarify tìtaron vs sätaron at the same time, as an example to re-explain/review word relationships?

Gerands didn't originally exist with the language.  If you look at Avatar:ASG (not as authoritative, but as a historical language early evolution reference), you'll see that there aren't any gerands.  Thus I would guess that tìtaron came not long after ASG was created.  And the gerand was added later as a productive synonym/alternative.


EDIT/ADD:

Culturally, it can be explained that hunting is such an important part of life for the Na'vi that it developed its own term, instead of having a gerund form I would assume though the <tì><us> form is still legal, even if it is not normally used.

Agree with this 110%.  Na'vi words reflect (or should) the values and mindset of the Na'vi society.  There are many more words about hunting and the forest that we need to "discover" and learn, as we try to understand more about The People.

[Tìtstewan]

As far as I know:
sätaron: hunt (in the meaning of an 'instrumental' sense) [ger.: die Jagd]
tìtaron: hunting (in an 'abstract' sense) [ger.: die Jagd]
tìtusaron: hunting (as an 'in action' sense) [ger.: das Jagen]

Here is also an example about sätaron from Na'viteri:

Eyk Kamun a fralo längu tsasätaron velke nìwotx. Taronyut yom smarìl! 'Every time Kamun is in charge, the hunt is a mess. Everything goes wrong that can.'

And about tìtusaron:

Neytiril Tsyeykur wamìntxu Omatikayaä vefyat tìtusaronä. 'Neytiri showed Jake the Omatikaya's approach to hunting.'

Tìtusaron mowan lu oer nìngay. 'Hunting really turns me on.'

Na'viri txina sä'o tìtusaronä lu tsko swizaw. 'For the Na'vi the bow and arrow is the main hunting tool.'

Lam oer fwa tsazìma'uyul ke fnan tìtusaronit. 'It seems to me that that newcomer isn't any good at hunting.'

Tìtusaronìri fte flivä, zene fko sivutx smarit ninan nìno. 'To succeed at hunting, you have to track your prey by reading (the forest) with attention to detail.'

Tìtusaronìri txo new fko slivu tsulfätu, zene smarto livu walak. 'If you want to become a master hunter, you have to be more active than your prey.'

Note it's literally: "As for the hunting..."

EDIT: I can't find any example on Na'viteri about tìtaron. Could someone say, where this word was confirmed?
I found only in the wiki this: Tìtaron lu lehrrap. 'Hunting is dangerous.'

[Taronyu Leleioae]

EDIT: I can't find any example on Na'viteri about tìtaron. Could someone say, where this word was confirmed?
I found only in the wiki this: Tìtaron lu lehrrap. 'Hunting is dangerous.'

Guessing in that time span between ASG being published, and before or around the time when Na'viteri was created.  Part of the first official word lists.  It would be interesting and valuable to ask if such a list still exists from a language evolutionary tracking point of view for reference.

[Plumps]

It was part of a film line not used. But I agree, since I only got this line a few months ago, but tìtaron is in the Taronyu way longer we must have come across it at an earlier stage. I would have to do a little digging.

[Tirea Aean]

Culturally, it can be explained that hunting is such an important part of life for the Na'vi that it developed its own term, instead of having a gerund form I would assume though the <tì><us> form is still legal, even if it is not normally used.

Probably this.

[Tìtstewan]

EDIT/ADD: Culturally, it can be explained that hunting is such an important part of life for the Na'vi that it developed its own term, instead of having a gerund form I would assume though the <tì><us> form is still legal, even if it is not normally used. Agree with this 110%.  Na'vi words reflect (or should) the values and mindset of the Na'vi society.  There are many more words about hunting and the forest that we need to "discover" and learn, as we try to understand more about The People. Culturally, it can be explained that hunting is such an important part of life for the Na'vi that it developed its own term, instead of having a gerund form I would assume though the <tì><us> form is still legal, even if it is not normally used. Probably this.

I think, for the Na'vi hunting has an important role in their life, but this mean not that they have a dozen of word for this like the Inuit with 20 different names for 'snow' (and they also hunt). They probably see hunting as a necessary work to survive, and, of course, as a ritual like the Uniltaron. Also remember, they have an enormous closeness with the environment, as for example, they have different names for 'waterfalls'.

And a thing about the ASG: I would not take the ASG as a source for language related questions, especially (as far as I know) Frommer wasn't involved at the creation of this book.

[Taronyu Leleioae]

I think, for the Na'vi hunting has an important role in their life, but this mean not that they have a dozen of word for this like the Inuit with 20 different names for 'snow' (and they also hunt). They probably see hunting as a necessary work to survive, and, of course, as a ritual like the Uniltaron. Also remember, they have an enormous closeness with the environment, as for example, they have different names for 'waterfalls'.

And a thing about the ASG: I would not take the ASG as a source for language related questions, especially (as far as I know) Frommer wasn't involved at the creation of this book.

I think we've seriously derailed this thread.  However...

I'd be cautious theorizing about how a native (any culture) views hunting unless one has studied and met them.  Even then, we are only speculating what we "think" we know how the Na'vi might view the world.  Further, hunting can be a very spiritual part of life.  (Unfortunately there are also those who only care to massacre the game population but that's another discussion thread...)  My point, as a hunter/gather society, much of their life and focus would revolve around hunting as it is their means of both survival and flourishing of the clan.  I think this is a rich topic for further expansion of language words in the future. 

Personally, I found it both exciting and realistic for those multiple water fall names.  Being one who walks the remote forests in this region, I think it reflective of the Na'vi culture.

Tìtstewan, I think you miss my point about ASG.  This book was created with an early list that was being put together.  I can verify that Karyu Pawl wasn't aware of it.  (I've seen his comments.)  It was early in the process before he was brought on as the language authority.  Hence why the book has wonderful but completely improper words/names for cultural objects in the front, yet a completely different list of words at the end in an attempt as an early dictionary.  One has to remember, this was created as a novelty (along with the game) to support the first film.  Of which, at that time, Cameron and Karyu Pawl had no idea of its impact nor success.

To disregard ASG as a language source is, imo, a mistake.  We know it is not authoritative nor can be trusted.  Obviously we want authoritative resources only.  However..., ASG does reflect a "snapshot" in time early in Avatar and Na'vi language early development, even if it is not authoritative.  It shows us what was at first being considered and created (even if incorrect).  Hence why I see ASG as a bit of a history book.  It's a very very early glimpse into a rough draft of the developing language.

[Blue Elf]

Kxeyey: hunting = tìtusaron, but audio sample says tìtaron

Probably because tìtusaron and tìtaron are synonyms.

However, these synonyms sounds different in speech (or should)

[Tìtstewan]

I think we've seriously derailed this thread.  However...

This thread derailed since we've saw three nouns of taron with no exact idea what they are mean and a page before with the cultural thing...

To disregard ASG as a language source is, imo, a mistake.  We know it is not authoritative nor can be trusted.  Obviously we want authoritative resources only.  However..., ASG does reflect a "snapshot" in time early in Avatar and Na'vi language early development, even if it is not authoritative.  It shows us what was at first being considered and created (even if incorrect).  Hence why I see ASG as a bit of a history book.  It's a very very early glimpse into a rough draft of the developing language.

The thing is, how can help this ASG us, if we accept only authoritative sources?

About tìtaron
Here is the post, who appears the sentence Tìtaron lu lehrrap. 'Hunting is dangerous.', which is also the same sentence like in the LN wiki.

In the dictionary is this:
tìtaron: [tI."ta.Ron] PF n. hunting (derived from taron hunt)
here is the source by PF (Pawl) and what was written there, before we had this:

For example, here's some film dialog they asked me for that was never used: You must learn to hunt with a bow and arrow. Tsko swizawfa a tìtaronìri zene fko nivume.

[Blue Elf]

typo found - not 'oratsyip, but 'oratsyìp (raised also in dictionary thread as this typo comes from main dictionary)

[Blue Elf]

mìnyu is used twice in the course (Level 52 and 53)
it comes from fact that main dictionary lists it twice too:

1/ main block - mìnyu: ["mIn.ju] PF n. turner (derived from mìn turn)
2/ fauna and flora - mìnyu: ["mIn.ju] PF n. turner, twisted lily (derived from mìn turn)

Raised in dictionary thread - after solution will be found, both definitions should be made the same (if one of them will not be deleted)

[Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan]

mìnyu is used twice in the course (Level 52 and 53)
it comes from fact that main dictionary lists it twice too:

1/ main block - mìnyu: ["mIn.ju] PF n. turner (derived from mìn turn)
2/ fauna and flora - mìnyu: ["mIn.ju] PF n. turner, twisted lily (derived from mìn turn)

Raised in dictionary thread - after solution will be found, both definitions should be made the same (if one of them will not be deleted)

Irayo ma Plumps.  I'll wait to see if there's a resolution.

[Blue Elf]

in level 53 there's used "sat" - that. This definition probably can be confused with other forms of that.
Main dictionary says: sat: [sat^] PF pn. that (lenited form of tsat)
I propose either take full definition from main dictionary or refine definition as "that - plural patientive form"

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

Normally, there is a historical reason why such 'commonly inflected' words appear in the dictionary. But since sat is a properly inflected (i.e. nothing irregular) short plural, with no real historic importance or significance, I agree with Blue Elf that sat does not really need to be in the dictionary. Of course, someone else here may know the history behind sat and give a good reason why it should not be removed.