Learning Na'vi Vocabulary: The Easy Way

Started by MuneTompaTaem, January 07, 2012, 11:48:01 AM

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Tirea Aean

You can go to ANY level and play that level? Interesting.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 16, 2013, 02:13:12 PM
You can go to ANY level and play that level? Interesting.
Yes, you can do that (and I do). I know many words, but have difficulties to remember the new ones, so I'd like to learn these. AFAIK, all words are divided into stacks of 20 words and probably up to some level they are in sequence as in dictionary. After the last one these are in order as new posts appears on Naviteri.
Seems that words starting by post from Oct 31 2012 aren't included.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tirea Aean

Quote from: Blue Elf on February 17, 2013, 11:32:45 AM
Seems that words starting by post from Oct 31 2012 aren't included.

Ok thanks. :). I'll see what I can do. Gotta compile the list then add them to the course. Goal is to have all words done in less than a week's time starting now.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 17, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on February 17, 2013, 11:32:45 AM
Seems that words starting by post from Oct 31 2012 aren't included.

Ok thanks. :). I'll see what I can do. Gotta compile the list then add them to the course. Goal is to have all words done in less than a week's time starting now.
Two more notes:
- fnetxum is listed as adj., what probably is not fully correct (see dictionary thread)
- not all words come from Naviteri (like tìmwiä), so thay can be missing. I can't give more information as I go trough lessons randomly and irregularly...
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tirea Aean

Quote from: Blue Elf on February 17, 2013, 12:12:18 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 17, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on February 17, 2013, 11:32:45 AM
Seems that words starting by post from Oct 31 2012 aren't included.

Ok thanks. :). I'll see what I can do. Gotta compile the list then add them to the course. Goal is to have all words done in less than a week's time starting now.
Two more notes:
- fnetxum is listed as adj., what probably is not fully correct (see dictionary thread)
- not all words come from Naviteri (like tìmwiä), so thay can be missing. I can't give more information as I go trough lessons randomly and irregularly...

Ok. So what's the issue that needs to be changed on my part for that second note?

Palulukan Maktoyu

Ok my .02

The memrise word list was created at a point where each word is defined in the dictionary. ( right or wrong it's in there )
using the example word "fnetxum" is in the dictionary as an adj. and according to pg 54 in the dictionary.
"12.82 - Added fnetxum from the AvatarMeet Na'vi class. Also added tìtxen si (thanks to
Plumps). Removed le- prefix from main section."
so it got in due to a usage at the Na'vi class during the last meet.

Now with that all in mind and the conversation as pointed in the dictionary thread. Until it's agree'd and changed in the dictionary I would hope that it would remain unchanged in memrise.  Yes this is that 1 hard point I envisioned that could happen at any point ( which is why unlike some I don't print out the dictionary, as minor changes and additions are happening all the time." and yes i even follow the dictionary thread.

Should it be changed now in memrise? My answer would be not until it's showing as such in the Dictionary, as at that point it becomes a confirmed by either the LEP or by Karyu Pawl himself. =) ( sorry if i sound way out there but that's my thinking )
Fkol syaw oeru Palulukan Maktoyu Ta'lengean

Twitter: https://twitter.com/navi_wotd

Tirea Aean

I will change fnetxum in Memrise after It is changed in the dictionary itself.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 17, 2013, 12:19:26 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on February 17, 2013, 12:12:18 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on February 17, 2013, 12:08:41 PM
Quote from: Blue Elf on February 17, 2013, 11:32:45 AM
Seems that words starting by post from Oct 31 2012 aren't included.

Ok thanks. :). I'll see what I can do. Gotta compile the list then add them to the course. Goal is to have all words done in less than a week's time starting now.
Two more notes:
- fnetxum is listed as adj., what probably is not fully correct (see dictionary thread)
- not all words come from Naviteri (like tìmwiä), so thay can be missing. I can't give more information as I go trough lessons randomly and irregularly...

Ok. So what's the issue that needs to be changed on my part for that second note?
Not sure if there's any. I just wanted to find the point, where memrise vocabulary "ends", but found that some words have different source than Naviteri. So the only way to find missing words is to compare memrise vocabulary and our dictionary.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Blue Elf

#48
Some ideas for improvement:
- set ayoeng + awnga as synonyms
- better definition for f-words with meaning of "that" (fwa/futa/furia). There's no guide what memrise asks for.
fwa = that as subject of intransitive  verb
futa = that as object  of transitive  verb
furia = that in topical case
The same for t-words (tsawa/tsata/tsaria)
- also I'm not sure if pefyinep'ang and fyinep'angpe are taken as synonyms
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on February 21, 2013, 12:38:12 PM
Some ideas for improvement:
- set ayoeng + awnga as synonyms
- better definition for f-words with meaning of "that" (fwa/futa/furia). There's no guide what memrise asks for.
fwa = that as subject of intransitive  verb
futa = that as object  of transitive  verb
furia = that in topical case
The same for t-words (tsawa/tsata/tsaria)
- also I'm not sure if pefyinep'ang and fyinep'angpe are taken as synonyms

Would marking fula/futa/furia with their agentive, patientive, and topical cases be useful elsewhere?  What I'm thinking is that Tuiq is talking about EanaEltu2, and is asking for suggestions for improvements to the dictionary system.  It seems to me that marking these may be useful if we're going to generate data for learning programs from the EanaEltu database.

Irrespective of that, I think we can mark the fula/futa/furia questions in memrise with those terms, and have them displayed during testing.

Blue Elf

It is really necessary, otherwise how you can know what form of "that" memrise wants to hear from you?
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)


Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Blue Elf on March 01, 2013, 02:11:37 PM
It is really necessary, otherwise how you can know what form of "that" memrise wants to hear from you?
Well, having a few thats amongst the first 800 words on memrise that I have, I can say that presently it will accept at least futa (102) or furia (686) in response to that.

I think that memrise automatically generates these synonyms - because the English word is identical.

So, my first thought of adding an additional column for "case" would let you see what was being requested, it would still accept furia as well for futa.  I think the solution to this is to change the English against these to be that (agentive), that (patientive) and that (topical) etc, so the English word is different.  But then... how do we distinguish between furia from tsaria ?

Tirea Aean

Again, here's the reason why I hate translating the F words (fwa futa furia) as "that"...

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 01, 2013, 02:28:45 PM
So, my first thought of adding an additional column for "case" would let you see what was being requested, it would still accept furia as well for futa.  I think the solution to this is to change the English against these to be that (agentive), that (patientive) and that (topical) etc, so the English word is different.  But then... how do we distinguish between furia from tsaria ?
Okay, looking at our wonderful vrrtepcli tool, I spotted these amongst the "that"s:

n. teynga    (that answer)
n. teyngla    (that answer (agentive))
n. teyngta    (that answer (patientive))

So, we have a precident for adding (agentive) and (patientive) to the English version.  So at the moment, I'm proposing to change these in the memrise course thusly:

fulathat (agentive)
futathat (patientive)
furiathat (topical)
tsatathat (patientive)
tsariathat (topical)
unless there's a better suggestion - and provided Tirea blesses this.  This would just be an additional clarification.

However, I'm reticent to change the "that" without there being an official change in the dictionary, because that will definitely cause confusion amongst learners, even though I personally think of the whole "fula" group as meaning "this thing which" (fì'ul a).  Not sure if thinking like that helps or hinders my Na'vi though.

Tirea Aean

THAT(hrh) seems ok to me. Helps big time with the problem, but you still got futa / tsata, furia / tsaria being the same. As you've said.

Alyara Arati

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 01, 2013, 06:58:31 PM
Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 01, 2013, 02:28:45 PM
So, my first thought of adding an additional column for "case" would let you see what was being requested, it would still accept furia as well for futa.  I think the solution to this is to change the English against these to be that (agentive), that (patientive) and that (topical) etc, so the English word is different.  But then... how do we distinguish between furia from tsaria ?
Okay, looking at our wonderful vrrtepcli tool, I spotted these amongst the "that"s:

n. teynga    (that answer)
n. teyngla    (that answer (agentive))
n. teyngta    (that answer (patientive))

So, we have a precident for adding (agentive) and (patientive) to the English version.  So at the moment, I'm proposing to change these in the memrise course thusly:

fulathat (agentive)
futathat (patientive)
furiathat (topical)
tsatathat (patientive)
tsariathat (topical)
unless there's a better suggestion - and provided Tirea blesses this.  This would just be an additional clarification.

However, I'm reticent to change the "that" without there being an official change in the dictionary, because that will definitely cause confusion amongst learners, even though I personally think of the whole "fula" group as meaning "this thing which" (fì'ul a).  Not sure if thinking like that helps or hinders my Na'vi though.

:)
Learn how to see.  Realize that everything connects to everything else.
~ Leonardo da Vinci

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 01, 2013, 06:58:31 PM

fulathat (agentive)
futathat (patientive)
furiathat (topical)
tsatathat (patientive)
tsariathat (topical)

Now done!  ;D

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Ok, I've now been through what's in memrise, and compared it with what's currently produced by the vrrtepcli dictionary scripts, which source its information from the eanaeltu SQL dump.

Here's the list of differences - slightly edited by yours truely.  This doesn't include new words.  Lines in red and starting with - are the memrise version, lines in blue (what other colour would I use?) and starting with + are from the latest dictionary data.



Na'viEnglishPart Of Speech
-lìmfar, be farsvin.
+lìmbe farsvin.
-ikranayforest banshee (Not PF)n.
+ikranayforest bansheen.
-ìläby, via, followingadp.
+ìläby, via, following, according toadp.
-lonatayamedusan.
-pawmaskv.
+pawmaskvin.
-uvangame, sportn.
+uvangamen.
-simnear, be nearsvin.
+simbe nearsvin.
-spengrestorev.
+spengrestorevtr.
-storefuse (to do something)v.
+storefuse (to do something)vtrm.
-tìftang sistopvin.
+tìftang sistop (someone or something)vin.
-vingkapoccur to one, pop into one's mind, strike onevtr.
+vingkapoccur to one, pop into one's mindvtr.
-'ekxinumtightness, loosenessn.
+'ekxinumdegree of tightness, loosenessn.
-ranintrinsic character or nature, essence, constititution; basic nature of something resulting from the totality of its properties; often best translated as ``personality"n.
+ranintrinsic character or nature, essence, constititution; basic nature of something resulting from the totality of its properties; often best translated as "personality"n.
-venga'organized, ``on top of things"adj.
+venga'organized, "on top of things"adj.
-säwäsultsyìpcontestn.
+säwäsultsyìpa contestn.
Note - the above includes changing some `` to ", which is more a cleanup.  I will see about making the above changes later this evening (UTC) or tomorrow.

Adding new words is less of a priority as no one has reached the end of the existing course yet - and it's complicated as the memrise 'bulk entry' appears to be broken at the moment.

Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan

Tam.

The above changes (except the removal of lonataya - because I want to test the effect of removing a word on a non-live course first) are now in place - and re-verified back to the vrrtepcli dictionary data.

Blue Elf

Quote from: Tsyalatun te Eyktan Txuratu'itan on March 02, 2013, 11:48:52 AM
Adding new words is less of a priority as no one has reached the end of the existing course yet - and it's complicated as the memrise 'bulk entry' appears to be broken at the moment.
But not all people follow the course step by step - for example I go through lessons randomly. I'd prefer to add new vocabulary, as I know "older" words, but have problem to remember the new ones.
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)