Author Topic: Na'vi for beginners  (Read 4939 times)

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Offline MIPP

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Na'vi for beginners
« on: September 12, 2010, 07:25:50 am »
Hey there,

I created a doc, which is something like a "pre-na'vi in a nutshell". It's really for beginners (or dummies, as I wrote) and it will only be useful at the beginning of the learning process.

Download it here.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2010, 05:18:04 am by MIPP »
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

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Offline bommel

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 08:00:09 am »
I'll have a look, thanks :)
THough I already know some words/phrases I haven't really started lerning yet...

Offline Payä Tìrol

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2010, 08:50:50 am »
"Disgusted" is a phonetics term?
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2010, 11:12:39 am »
"Disgusted" is a phonetics term?

I was wondering the same thing.  Other than that, not bad.  I wonder if it might be easier though to say that the diphthongs are considered as consonants when you mention all the case endings, but then again, spelling it out they it is now may be less confusing for early beginners...


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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 am »
A few corrections ma MIPP (mainly concerning IPA and the English example or picky things about linguistic terminology).

Strictly speaking the "ay" is say is usually [ej] but that's a very picky difference and would be perfectly understandable to a hypothetical native.

The ll in allow is not the na'vi <ll> (it's usually [əl]), I'd give the "le" in table as the example instead.

Also, only a few English accents have [o ] and the rest normally have some diphthong for mow such as [əʊ̯], [ɵʊ̯], [oʊ̯] or in a few accents from the north of England, [ɛʊ̯] so it might be best not to give an example.

I'd give an example for [ʊ] as well as for [u ] so I'd give in the examples "do; foot"

Then, the original Frommerian translation (albeit from an article that included and infix <ev>) for tolaron was "hunted" and tamaron was the one translated in the perfect. Remember that <ol> isn't the perfect, but is the perfective instead (they're different aspects).

<er> isn't the gerund, it's the progressive; the gerund is tì-<us>.

Your example of the conjunctive is actually an optative not conjunctive.

<ei> and <äng> are not moods, the only mood in na'vi is the subjunctive, <ei> and <äng> are examples of affect. This distinction is very important to explain to beginners as soon as possible or else they ask questions with the wrong terminology and we don't quite know what they mean.

The genitive is a case. It's slightly broader than a possessive too, in English I can talk about "men of England" as a rough synonym for "all Englishmen", this construction uses a genitive so would be "sute 'ìnglìn-ä" in na'vi. Also, you don't mention the genitive for nouns ending in -ll or -rr.

Under adjectives you talk about a "substantive", in the grammar of most European languages this would be correct and widely understood, but in English the term "noun" encompasses most of what you think of as a substantive and is more widely understood.

I wouldn't mention any of the non-productive derivational morphology as it will just lead to overuse. That means that I'd leave out le-, si, nì- on anything other than an adjective, tì- and -tu. Also, your explanation of -tu is faulty, it isn't someone who makes/does something (and it is canonically applied to more than just nouns) but rather someone associated with it.



As I say, most of these are quite picky, but the strength of this site is in its resources and so they must be held to a very high standard.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2010, 01:47:51 am by kewnya txamew'itan »
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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2010, 05:01:26 pm »
Teri phonetics section...
The ll in table is not the na'vi <ll> (it's usually [əl]), I'd give the "le" in table as the example instead.

Personally the way I say the "-le" ending is a short, syllabic l.  Maybe then a word like "pull" would be a better example?  If that fails, be sure to mention that the <ll> has no appreciable vowel quality to it.  However, one thing is certain: "allow" is not a syllabic l (close, though).

EDIT: I see what you're saying here, ma Kewnya.  What ll in table?  ::)

Also, only a few English accents have [o ] and the rest normally have some diphthong for mow such as [əʊ̯], [ɵʊ̯], [oʊ̯] or in a few accents from the north of England, [ɛʊ̯] so it might be best not to give an example.

True, but why not have an example?  Maybe you could say it's like the "o" in "bold" only deeper, and without a glide.

I'd give an example for [ʊ] as well as for [u ] so I'd give in the examples "do; foot"

U's in English are tricky because they tend to be diphthongal: something like {ɨu̟}.  However, words like "rule" and "cool" keep the u-sound purer than other words.

As for the short, lax u, {ʊ}, I wouldn't prefer an example here for ambiguity: in GA, that phoneme is realized as something like {ʊə} before coronal consonants, and {ɤ} elsewhere.

Some other notes:

{a}, to be honest is not the same a in father.  Instead it is something between the a in father and the a in cat.

What's to say for the pronounciation of <ew> and <r>?  Maybe for <r> you can say it's the "tt" in butter "dd" in ladder, etc.?

As for the three ejectives, you could say they are like a regular k, t, and p, except you are saying them intensely while holding your breath.

I could nitpick some more, but I don't want to give you a hard time, ma MIPP ;)
 
"Disgusted" is a phonetics term?

Good point, and no it isn't a phonetics term.  How is it <ä> became described as "disgusted"?

Quote
Although they're two letters, think about ay, aw, ey, ew, ts, kx, px,
tx, ll, rr as single entities.

...and ng, too!
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 05:04:32 pm by 'Oma Tirea »
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

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Offline 'Oma Tirea

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2010, 05:21:59 pm »
Teri aylahe...

Then, the original Frommerian translation (albeit from an article that included and infix <ev>) for tolaron was "hunted" and tamaron was the one translated in the perfect. Remember that <ol> isn't the perfect, but is the perfective instead (they're different aspects).

<er> isn't the gerund, it's the progressive; the gerund is tì-<us>.


Your example of the conjunctive is actually an optative not conjunctive.

???

Is this refering to the <iv> infix?


<ei> and <äng> are not moods, the only mood in na'vi is the subjunctive, <ei> and <äng> are examples of affect. This distinction is very important to explain to beginners as soon as possible or else they ask questions with the wrong terminology and we don't quite know what they mean.

Maybe make a note about that?  Remember, "mood" is the layman's term for what linguists call "affect".

Quote
Final translation note:
All the information here may be found on Na‟vi in a Nutshell (from
NeotrekkerZ) and on the Pocket Guide (from MidnightLightining) as well as
from discussion in the forums.

(more nitpicking ::))
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2010, 01:50:55 am »
Ma 'oma tirea:

1. I meant allow, I've edited.

2. Yes, but without a note it's misleading.

And from the second post:

1. Yes I was referring to the section on, <iv>, I should have been clearer.

2. I know it's the layman's term, it's just that this must be discouraged or else it will only lead to confusion.
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Offline kaltxi Angtsik

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 01:33:59 pm »
This is an excellent starting point for a skxanwg like me, thanks - but I do wonder why ä is "disgusted"-
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Offline Payä Tìrol

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2010, 07:36:42 pm »
Hrh, that was mentioned a few posts up, it's a mistake of some sort.
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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #10 on: November 03, 2010, 12:51:09 am »
I never knew that "Moe ayskxawng lu" translates to "We two are many brothers"  ;)

Irayo for the guide though, it should come in handy for beginners like myself.
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #11 on: November 03, 2010, 02:39:31 am »
Many morons ma txep txe'lan, skxawng=moron, tsmukan=brother.
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Offline Ikran Ahiyìk

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2010, 04:53:25 am »
From p.3

Quote
Moe mesmukan lu (We two are two brothers) or Moe tsmukan lu (We two are brother). NEVER: Moe ayskxawng lu (We two are many brothers).

Is it a typo or what ???
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Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2010, 12:27:49 pm »
Probably a hangover from a previous version. I'd guess that tsmukan was chosen because it also highlights lenition which can't be seen with skxawng.
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Offline MIPP

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2010, 12:30:58 pm »
ASAP I'll check it and update it.
All the mistakes I can find shall be corrected.

Thanks for your feedback.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #15 on: December 04, 2010, 07:02:33 am »
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Offline MIPP

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 03:47:50 pm »
As you may know, the versions you downloaded until now were BETA, just to test.
The version 1.0 is now on the first post.
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2010, 12:41:09 pm »
just saw this. its pretty good start. just one thing...

ay is NEVER [ej]. it is in English, but not Na'vi.

ay is [aj] and
ey is [ɛj]
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 12:43:01 pm by Tirea Aean »

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Offline MIPP

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2010, 05:19:05 am »
just saw this. its pretty good start. just one thing...

ay is NEVER [ej]. it is in English, but not Na'vi.

ay is [aj] and
ey is [ɛj]

I have just corrected it.
Oe irayo seiyi ngaru, ma Tirea Aean.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

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Re: Na'vi for beginners
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2010, 12:25:37 pm »
just saw this. its pretty good start. just one thing...

ay is NEVER [ej]. it is in English, but not Na'vi.

ay is [aj] and
ey is [ɛj]

I have just corrected it.
Oe irayo seiyi ngaru, ma Tirea Aean.

nìprrte'. :)

its like a NiaNtsyìp :3

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