Na'vi for beginners

Started by MIPP, September 12, 2010, 07:25:50 AM

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MIPP

Hey there,

I created a doc, which is something like a "pre-na'vi in a nutshell". It's really for beginners (or dummies, as I wrote) and it will only be useful at the beginning of the learning process.

Download it here.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

bommel

I'll have a look, thanks :)
THough I already know some words/phrases I haven't really started lerning yet...

Payä Tìrol

"Disgusted" is a phonetics term?
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

Seze

Quote from: Payä Tìrol on September 12, 2010, 08:50:50 AM
"Disgusted" is a phonetics term?

I was wondering the same thing.  Other than that, not bad.  I wonder if it might be easier though to say that the diphthongs are considered as consonants when you mention all the case endings, but then again, spelling it out they it is now may be less confusing for early beginners...


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kewnya txamew'itan

#4
A few corrections ma MIPP (mainly concerning IPA and the English example or picky things about linguistic terminology).

Strictly speaking the "ay" is say is usually [ej] but that's a very picky difference and would be perfectly understandable to a hypothetical native.

The ll in allow is not the na'vi <ll> (it's usually [əl]), I'd give the "le" in table as the example instead.

Also, only a few English accents have [o ] and the rest normally have some diphthong for mow such as [əʊ̯], [ɵʊ̯], [oʊ̯] or in a few accents from the north of England, [ɛʊ̯] so it might be best not to give an example.

I'd give an example for [ʊ] as well as for [u ] so I'd give in the examples "do; foot"

Then, the original Frommerian translation (albeit from an article that included and infix <ev>) for tolaron was "hunted" and tamaron was the one translated in the perfect. Remember that <ol> isn't the perfect, but is the perfective instead (they're different aspects).

<er> isn't the gerund, it's the progressive; the gerund is tì-<us>.

Your example of the conjunctive is actually an optative not conjunctive.

<ei> and <äng> are not moods, the only mood in na'vi is the subjunctive, <ei> and <äng> are examples of affect. This distinction is very important to explain to beginners as soon as possible or else they ask questions with the wrong terminology and we don't quite know what they mean.

The genitive is a case. It's slightly broader than a possessive too, in English I can talk about "men of England" as a rough synonym for "all Englishmen", this construction uses a genitive so would be "sute 'ìnglìn-ä" in na'vi. Also, you don't mention the genitive for nouns ending in -ll or -rr.

Under adjectives you talk about a "substantive", in the grammar of most European languages this would be correct and widely understood, but in English the term "noun" encompasses most of what you think of as a substantive and is more widely understood.

I wouldn't mention any of the non-productive derivational morphology as it will just lead to overuse. That means that I'd leave out le-, si, nì- on anything other than an adjective, tì- and -tu. Also, your explanation of -tu is faulty, it isn't someone who makes/does something (and it is canonically applied to more than just nouns) but rather someone associated with it.




As I say, most of these are quite picky, but the strength of this site is in its resources and so they must be held to a very high standard.
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'Oma Tirea

#5
Teri phonetics section...
Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
The ll in table is not the na'vi <ll> (it's usually [əl]), I'd give the "le" in table as the example instead.

Personally the way I say the "-le" ending is a short, syllabic l.  Maybe then a word like "pull" would be a better example?  If that fails, be sure to mention that the <ll> has no appreciable vowel quality to it.  However, one thing is certain: "allow" is not a syllabic l (close, though).

EDIT: I see what you're saying here, ma Kewnya.  What ll in table?  ::)

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
Also, only a few English accents have [o ] and the rest normally have some diphthong for mow such as [əʊ̯], [ɵʊ̯], [oʊ̯] or in a few accents from the north of England, [ɛʊ̯] so it might be best not to give an example.

True, but why not have an example?  Maybe you could say it's like the "o" in "bold" only deeper, and without a glide.

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
I'd give an example for [ʊ] as well as for [u ] so I'd give in the examples "do; foot"

U's in English are tricky because they tend to be diphthongal: something like {ɨu̟}.  However, words like "rule" and "cool" keep the u-sound purer than other words.

As for the short, lax u, {ʊ}, I wouldn't prefer an example here for ambiguity: in GA, that phoneme is realized as something like {ʊə} before coronal consonants, and {ɤ} elsewhere.

Some other notes:

{a}, to be honest is not the same a in father.  Instead it is something between the a in father and the a in cat.

What's to say for the pronounciation of <ew> and <r>?  Maybe for <r> you can say it's the "tt" in butter "dd" in ladder, etc.?

As for the three ejectives, you could say they are like a regular k, t, and p, except you are saying them intensely while holding your breath.

I could nitpick some more, but I don't want to give you a hard time, ma MIPP ;)

Quote from: Payä Tìrol on September 12, 2010, 08:50:50 AM
"Disgusted" is a phonetics term?

Good point, and no it isn't a phonetics term.  How is it <ä> became described as "disgusted"?

QuoteAlthough they're two letters, think about ay, aw, ey, ew, ts, kx, px,
tx, ll, rr as single entities.

...and ng, too!
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

'Oma Tirea

Teri aylahe...

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
Then, the original Frommerian translation (albeit from an article that included and infix <ev>) for tolaron was "hunted" and tamaron was the one translated in the perfect. Remember that <ol> isn't the perfect, but is the perfective instead (they're different aspects).

<er> isn't the gerund, it's the progressive; the gerund is tì-<us>.


Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 AM
Your example of the conjunctive is actually an optative not conjunctive.

???

Is this refering to the <iv> infix?

Quote from: kewnya txamew'itan on September 12, 2010, 11:34:22 AM

<ei> and <äng> are not moods, the only mood in na'vi is the subjunctive, <ei> and <äng> are examples of affect. This distinction is very important to explain to beginners as soon as possible or else they ask questions with the wrong terminology and we don't quite know what they mean.

Maybe make a note about that?  Remember, "mood" is the layman's term for what linguists call "affect".

QuoteFinal translation note:
All the information here may be found on Na‟vi in a Nutshell (from
NeotrekkerZ) and on the Pocket Guide (from MidnightLightining) as well as
from discussion in the forums.

(more nitpicking ::))
[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

kewnya txamew'itan

Ma 'oma tirea:

1. I meant allow, I've edited.

2. Yes, but without a note it's misleading.

And from the second post:

1. Yes I was referring to the section on, <iv>, I should have been clearer.

2. I know it's the layman's term, it's just that this must be discouraged or else it will only lead to confusion.
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kaltxi Angtsik

This is an excellent starting point for a skxanwg like me, thanks - but I do wonder why ä is "disgusted"-
Yawey ngahu!
Oe nerume fte pivlltxe nìNa'vi.
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Payä Tìrol

Hrh, that was mentioned a few posts up, it's a mistake of some sort.
Oeyä atanìl mì sìvawm, mipa tìreyä tìsìlpeyur yat terìng

TxepTaronyu

I never knew that "Moe ayskxawng lu" translates to "We two are many brothers"  ;)

Irayo for the guide though, it should come in handy for beginners like myself.
Join the real life Na'vi tribe here  (And yes, it will be a real tribe in the real world, NOT a role play tribe!)

kewnya txamew'itan

Many morons ma txep txe'lan, skxawng=moron, tsmukan=brother.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

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Ikran Ahiyìk

From p.3

QuoteMoe mesmukan lu (We two are two brothers) or Moe tsmukan lu (We two are brother). NEVER: Moe ayskxawng lu (We two are many brothers).

Is it a typo or what ???
Plltxe nìhiyìk na ikran... oe fmeri sìltsan nì'ul slivu, ngaytxoa...


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kewnya txamew'itan

Probably a hangover from a previous version. I'd guess that tsmukan was chosen because it also highlights lenition which can't be seen with skxawng.
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
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MIPP

ASAP I'll check it and update it.
All the mistakes I can find shall be corrected.

Thanks for your feedback.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Key'ìl Nekxetse

Link is down:
ERROR 403 / BŁĄD 403

You don't have permission to access the requested object.
It is either read-protected or not readable by the server.
???
Key'ìl Nekxetse on "The Revolutionists"
~$ life --help
The program life received signal SIGSEV. Core dumped.

MIPP

As you may know, the versions you downloaded until now were BETA, just to test.
The version 1.0 is now on the first post.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tirea Aean

#17
just saw this. its pretty good start. just one thing...

ay is NEVER [ej]. it is in English, but not Na'vi.

ay is [aj] and
ey is [ɛj]

MIPP

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 17, 2010, 12:41:09 PM
just saw this. its pretty good start. just one thing...

ay is NEVER [ej]. it is in English, but not Na'vi.

ay is [aj] and
ey is [ɛj]

I have just corrected it.
Oe irayo seiyi ngaru, ma Tirea Aean.
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: MIPP on December 18, 2010, 05:19:05 AM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 17, 2010, 12:41:09 PM
just saw this. its pretty good start. just one thing...

ay is NEVER [ej]. it is in English, but not Na'vi.

ay is [aj] and
ey is [ɛj]

I have just corrected it.
Oe irayo seiyi ngaru, ma Tirea Aean.

nìprrte'. :)

its like a NiaNtsyìp :3