Na'vi in a Nutshell

Started by NeotrekkerZ, February 17, 2010, 09:54:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Plumps

LN#1.3 says it, although it's not listed like you've given it, that's true

NeotrekkerZ

Hey all,

New update for NIAN is now up.  I wanted to get a version up that had all the info up to the point just before the Language Retreat.  I've been extremely busy with school since basically August, and haven't been able to participate as much as I've wanted to.  That and my phone died right during the conference part of the retreat (a pxasìk moment if I've ever had one), so I've been somewhat out of the loop.  I tried to include the grammatically relevant sentences from the 3 part Na'viteri post and everything new that I've seen since getting back from Europe.  If you think I missed anything please post here and I'll include it in the (hopefully soon) next update along with all the info we get out of the retreat.

Version 2.4:  Created 6.2, LN 6.2, 9.12; added to 3.3, 9.11, appendix A, fixed some typos.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

'Oma Tirea

Kaltxì.  Hope you're not too busy...

This is mostly about revising NiaN instead of adding on.  Rutxe tìng nari...


[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

überdoodlet

I want to give a shout out. I have used this guide for a very, very long time. I think it's great.
If my word has any meaning, just know that this guide has been very helpful to me! ;D

Ekirä

Quote from: Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea on October 06, 2010, 03:01:45 AM
"a | a in father, o in dog"

→ It is better described as an a between the a in father and the a in dad.  Somehow learning {mɑ ʦmukɑn} does not seem right. 

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying here.....but I haven't heard an American accent that pronounces the a in dad like the a in father. I have a basic American accent and for me, it's däd, definitely not dad. ::)

NeotrekkerZ

OK, I'm going to have to reply to the suggestions in blocks, as there is a lot to go through and I can only spare spend time on it here and there.

You're right about the phonetics, people do pronounce things differently.  However, being an American with virtually no regional accent whatsoever, I wrote the phonics as best I could in everyday vernacular.  One of the goals I've always had for NIAN is that it be easy to read and understand.  This means sometimes the sounds are approximate, but for the most part I think it will be fairly good.  Those who want to get every last nuance of sound down will have to listen to all the audio and deduce it themselves.  For the international people, well, there are translations of NIAN done by people far more fluent in other languages than I am. 

Now to address some specific comments:

Regarding your two examples with TIP, I don't hear a purer sound, only a slightly longer pronunciation of the sound.  As for "when," well it rhymes with send the way I pronounce it.  That's another reason I tried to include more than one example, so that people would have multiple words to sound out which hopefully addresses the accent issue.

The ew sound:  I have only the example from the original message from K. Pawl to draw from here.  In his letter I hear him pronounce new along the lines of my oasis description, not your "wet" description.  If anyone can point me to other examples to help me refine this, please let me know.  Also, I never said eyo was a word (that's why it's not in bold).

I like the "hold breath" comment, will include.

replaced subtle with water, though I cannot detect a difference in pronunciation.

Ts in tsunami is one sound, but I LOVE the pizza example, will include.

That's all I have time for now.  Will get to others in time.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: Ekirä on October 06, 2010, 07:02:07 PM
Quote from: Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea on October 06, 2010, 03:01:45 AM
"a | a in father, o in dog"

→ It is better described as an a between the a in father and the a in dad.  Somehow learning {mɑ ʦmukɑn} does not seem right. 

Maybe I don't understand what you're saying here.....but I haven't heard an American accent that pronounces the a in dad like the a in father. I have a basic American accent and for me, it's däd, definitely not dad. ::)

You are correct.  Did you catch the word "between"?  I like to think of the Na'vi a-sound as a midway that exists between the two English a-sounds (short and broad).

@NeotrekkerZ, nice feedback, well-taken.  As for doing it in blocks, I can wait, and I understand well :)

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Ekirä

Quote from: Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea on October 06, 2010, 10:49:11 PM
You are correct.  Did you catch the word "between"?  I like to think of the Na'vi a-sound as a midway that exists between the two English a-sounds (short and broad).

:P No, I missed that. Correction taken. ::)

NeotrekkerZ

QuoteDid you catch the word "between"?  I like to think of the Na'vi a-sound as a midway that exists between the two English a-sounds (short and broad).
Fair enough, I tend to hear it the other way.

LN 1.1:  Your examples are very enlightening, I hadn't really thought about them.  The completist part of me wants to include them, but at that point in the document I haven't yet introduced infixes and I don't want to overwhelm the reader.  If we can find a word(non-infixed) that has the same property I will amend the note.

LN 1.3:  Good catch, I thought it was deducible, but a little more clarity wouldn't hurt, so I threw in an example.

LN 2.1:  Threw in the rare comment, it is a valid point.

LN 2.4:  Wouldn't the awkx example right above be proof that it works with at least pseudovowels as well?  Do we have a definitive statement regarding this, or was it just an inference?

LN 3.3:  In my version the soaiä exception is there.  I want to keep the explicitness of the o and u possession difference, so I compromised between your suggestion and what I had.  It now reads "The possession is formed with the suffix -yä if the noun ends in a vowel (but not o, or u), and -ä otherwise."

LN 3.6-3.8:  Tweaked, thanks for pointing out the colloquial form is only for pronouns.

I just noticed fula in the dictionary.  My brain is currently fried, so I'm currently accepting example sentences of its use.  I need to amend the "many faces of fì'u" section to include it.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 07, 2010, 12:15:27 AM
LN 1.1:  Your examples are very enlightening, I hadn't really thought about them.  The completist part of me wants to include them, but at that point in the document I haven't yet introduced infixes and I don't want to overwhelm the reader.  If we can find a word(non-infixed) that has the same property I will amend the note.

...and there is the tricky part :-\  Probably the best that can be figured for now is not to say anything about that phonotactical aspect of the pseudovowels....

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 07, 2010, 12:15:27 AM
LN 2.4:  Wouldn't the awkx example right above be proof that it works with at least pseudovowels as well?  Do we have a definitive statement regarding this, or was it just an inference?

???

I don't remember commenting on 2.4, and I don't quite understand what you're saying here.


Aside from what has said above, it is looking great ;D  Oe irayo seiyi ngaru nìmun.

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

NeotrekkerZ

QuoteI don't remember commenting on 2.4, and I don't quite understand what you're saying here.

Look at your suggestion:

QuoteLanguage Note #2.3: "Some plurals have a form of vowel contraction:"

→ Only if the noun begins with an "'e" or "e".

My example regarding 'awkx becoming awkx seems to me to contradict your statement.

Onto 4.x:

QuoteLanguage Note #4.3: "When one of these pronouns takes an ending (ergative, accusative, or dative), the a reappears in place of what you would expect (See the 3rd sentence above: oeng-al, not oeng-ìl)."

Reading this again, it implies that the forms oengar, and oengat are possible (dative and accusative).  Do we have any confirmation on this or any examples?  I will defer revising until I can figure it out.

LN 4.4:  As we have no definitive confirmation either way, I will leave it.

QuoteLanguage Note #4.5: You can also say that it's always "-ri" for the topical after diphthongs and not "-ìri" because both endings have more than one letter.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, could you elaborate?

I'm balancing these revisions with the new language updates we are getting, so bear with me.  I hope to address the rest by the end of the week.

Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

'Oma Tirea

I hope I am clarifying my suggestions OK here, and ngaytxoa for not thinking things through with some of these.

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 11, 2010, 02:20:09 AM
QuoteLanguage Note #2.3: "Some plurals have a form of vowel contraction:"

→ Only if the noun begins with an "'e" or "e".

My example regarding 'awkx becoming awkx seems to me to contradict your statement.


Here I am referring only to the me+ and pxe+ prefixes, not the ay+ prefix.

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 11, 2010, 02:20:09 AM

Onto 4.x:

QuoteLanguage Note #4.3: "When one of these pronouns takes an ending (ergative, accusative, or dative), the a reappears in place of what you would expect (See the 3rd sentence above: oeng-al, not oeng-ìl)."

Reading this again, it implies that the forms oengar, and oengat are possible (dative and accusative).  Do we have any confirmation on this or any examples?  I will defer revising until I can figure it out.


Oops :-\ I meant only the ergative, not the accusative or dative.  Nìmun, ngaytxoa, probably wasn't thinking straight at that time....

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 11, 2010, 02:20:09 AM

LN 4.4:  As we have no definitive confirmation either way, I will leave it.


Good point.  And after all, it will keep things simple if it's left untouched.

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 11, 2010, 02:20:09 AM
QuoteLanguage Note #4.5: You can also say that it's always "-ri" for the topical after diphthongs and not "-ìri" because both endings have more than one letter.

I'm not quite sure what you are saying here, could you elaborate?


In Horen leNa'vi § 3.1.1, it refers to the topical as always having to be "-ri" and not "-ìri" at the end of words ending in diphthongs.  Which makes more sense and flows better: wayri or wayìriSwizawri or swizawìri?

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 11, 2010, 02:20:09 AM
I'm balancing these revisions with the new language updates we are getting, so bear with me.  I hope to address the rest by the end of the week.

Sounds good.  Lu oeru tìmweypey fìtxeleri.  It looks like some of the updates might also enhance NiaN :)

[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!

Taronyu

It might be best to switch to agentive, patientive, ala Wm. Annis's guide and the correct terminology for a tripartite system. I did in my dictionary, and that way we'd all be on the same page. What do you think?

NeotrekkerZ

Ok, now up through 8.x comments.  Basically I made small changes to address most of your concerns.  To address a few things in detail:

Regarding possession:  yeah, your examples can get complicated really quick.  I don't want to go into those types of examples in NIAN just because 1.  I don't actually know how to reconcile the word order, 2.  I don't want to overload the reader and 3.  I just don't really ever have the opportunity to say such things.  If we can get a Na'vi translation of Spaceball's great example of this, I will happily include it. 

8.1.3:  I want to do a blurb about fula, but I'm blanking a little on how to use it.  I'll happily take a suggestion for an example sentence to use.

Ma Taronyu, I like your uniform terminology idea, anything to make things clearer/more cohesive to new learners.  I've replaced ergative and accusative with agentive and patientive.  Though, if anyone sees one that I missed when I release v2.5 let me know.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

omängum fra'uti

I think fula is best used with causative.

Fula nga zola'u oeti lrrtok seyki
That you have come makes me smile
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

NeotrekkerZ

I like the example, but with the new info on antipassive causatives, shouldn't oeti be oeru?
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

kewnya txamew'itan

lrrtok si isn't antipassive though, it's intransitive so oeti is correct (or at least, that's my understanding).
Internet Acronyms Nìna'vi

hamletä tìralpuseng lena'vi sngolä'eiyi. tìkangkem si awngahu ro
http://bit.ly/53GnAB
The translation of Hamlet into Na'vi has started! Join with us at http://bit.ly/53GnAB

txo nga new oehu pivlltxe nìna'vi, nga oer 'eylan si mì fayspuk (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)
If you want to speak na'vi to me, friend me on facebook (http://bit.ly/bp9fwf)

numena'viyä hapxì amezamkivohinve
learnnavi's

omängum fra'uti

Right, for antipassive, you need a verb that is normally transitive, while si verbs are never transitive.  When a verb is used in an antipassive construct, that just means the normal object is left unstated.
Ftxey lu nga tokx ftxey lu nga tirea? Lu oe tìkeftxo.
Listen to my Na'vi Lessons podcast!

NeotrekkerZ

^Thanks for clearing things up for me guys.

Last bit of revisions:

9.x:  Made most of the changes.  Concerned about why you have the orange words with a strike through them.  Are you saying they're wrong or not needed?  If the latter I would tend to agree that they are not necessary, but I like them for added effect.  And if memory serves 9.7 is either a direct quote or a play off of a direct quote from Frommer.

Epilogue/Appendix:  Cut out a few things, added the prezi lessons and naviteri (the last a rather large omission on my part, ngaytxoa K. Pawl).

I'm going to double check NIAN against all the new info we have one last time to make sure I have everything added.  This is a rather busy week for me, so I'm aiming to get v2.5 up by the weekend.  Even though school is zapping all my time, revising has helped keep me somewhat immersed in the language.  I thank you all for the suggestions and input.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya'ot a oe tswayon!

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 19, 2010, 01:19:49 AM
9.x:  Made most of the changes.  Concerned about why you have the orange words with a strike through them.  Are you saying they're wrong or not needed?  If the latter I would tend to agree that they are not necessary, but I like them for added effect.  And if memory serves 9.7 is either a direct quote or a play off of a direct quote from Frommer.

Sran, 9.6, 9.7, and 9.11 all tie into 9.2.  However, if 9.7 is a direct quote from Frommer (which I didn't know), you may leave it as is.  Added effect... hmm...

Quote from: NeotrekkerZ on October 19, 2010, 01:19:49 AM
Epilogue/Appendix:  Cut out a few things, added the prezi lessons and naviteri (the last a rather large omission on my part, ngaytxoa K. Pawl).

I'm going to double check NIAN against all the new info we have one last time to make sure I have everything added.  This is a rather busy week for me, so I'm aiming to get v2.5 up by the weekend.  Even though school is zapping all my time, revising has helped keep me somewhat immersed in the language.  I thank you all for the suggestions and input.

Txantsan ;D ;D ;D

Hope you have a good time :)


[img]http://swokaikran.skxawng.lu/sigbar/nwotd.php?p=2b[/img]

ÌTXTSTXRR!!

Srake serar le'Ìnglìsìa lì'fyayä aylì'ut?  Nari si älofoniru rutxe!!