Author Topic: Na'vi in a Nutshell  (Read 57194 times)

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Offline Kä'eng

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2010, 11:28:34 pm »
Found it: http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/information-please-read/

Quote
To get to that point, I’d like to ask you, ayhapxìtu lì’fyaolo’ä leNa'vi—the members of the Na’vi language community...
Ma evi, ke'u ke lu prrte' to fwa sim tuteot ayawne.
Slä txo tuteo fmi 'ivampi ngat ro seng, fu nìfya'o, a 'eykefu ngati vä', tsakem ke lu sìltsan.
Tsaw lu ngeyä tokx! Kawtu ke tsun nìmuiä 'ivampi ngat txo ngal ke new tsakemit.
Ha kempe si nga? Nì'awve, nga plltxe san kehe. Tsakrr, ngal tsatsengti hum!

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2010, 11:57:55 pm »
Irayo!
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #62 on: April 05, 2010, 12:51:34 pm »
This is terrific. I think I've learned more from reading through this a few times than all of the annoying questions I've asked the Grammar Na'zis. Not that they didn't help, it's just that now I finally understand how things work, instead of just knowing the theory. If that makes sense. I finally feel as if I'm making progress in the language, instead of getting stuck in the rut of simple sentences.


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2010, 04:28:20 pm »
Wonderful!  That was my hope with the guide.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #64 on: April 08, 2010, 08:50:11 pm »
New Update.  Updated the stress on every single word(Major pain in the txìm).  Added info to 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, LN5.10, 8.1.1, 9.6.  Created LN1.4, 8.2, 9.11.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #65 on: April 09, 2010, 09:47:37 am »
New Update.  Updated the stress on every single word(Major pain in the txìm).  Added info to 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, LN5.10, 8.1.1, 9.6.  Created LN1.4, 8.2, 9.11.

Oh awesome! That stress info will be a big help for people I'm sure.

Offline Tengfya swizaw

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2010, 05:27:06 pm »
New Update.  Updated the stress on every single word(Major pain in the txìm).  Added info to 5.2, 5.3, 5.4, LN5.10, 8.1.1, 9.6.  Created LN1.4, 8.2, 9.11.

Awesome! Of course, now I'll have to reprint it or something, but whatever.
And by the way, I read over it several times on my way to and from a camping trip, as well as during after a hike when I was lounging in my hammock.
So much more makes sense to me. Even though I've already said this, it's a great help and I've learned massive amounts from it.


Here's to not knowing exactly what you're saying and having fun with it.

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Offline Swokéyan

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #67 on: April 13, 2010, 10:21:21 am »
I finally decided to download, and print it a few days ago :P and i love it!
I think it will help beginners to understand most parts of the Na'vi grammar.
Very well done sir ;D
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Offline Muzer

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #68 on: April 13, 2010, 10:25:40 am »
Seems to be very easy to understand. I'll read this through thoroughly a couple of times tonight! I'm usually quite good at picking up the structure of languages; less so for vocabulary...
[21:42:56] <@Muzer> Apple products used to be good, if expensive
[21:42:59] <@Muzer> now they are just expensive

Tsamsiyu92

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2010, 04:11:35 am »
Words can not explain, how awesome this guide is.

:)

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2010, 04:54:34 pm »
Sadly, no new updates this week.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2010, 11:55:08 am »
Hey Neo,

First of all, thanks for keeping the NIAN up to date! Besides the Activity Book I get the feeling these are the number two learning materials that we have so far.

In translating the updated version into German I came across the double negation examples on p. 33 with ke’u which doesn’t make sense to me:

Ke tawtute ke’u fpx‹iv›äkìm fìtseng.
No skyperson may enter here.

The only ›sample‹ with ke’u I found in the canon is from Prrton and there it works quite a different way… Would be great if you, or somebody else, could check again if this sentence really works.

For me, your example should be kea tawtute ke fpxiväkìm fìtseng.

Thoughts? :)

Offline Ftiafpi

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2010, 11:59:19 am »
Hey Neo,

First of all, thanks for keeping the NIAN up to date! Besides the Activity Book I get the feeling these are the number two learning materials that we have so far.

In translating the updated version into German I came across the double negation examples on p. 33 with ke’u which doesn’t make sense to me:

Ke tawtute ke’u fpx‹iv›äkìm fìtseng.
No skyperson may enter here.

The only ›sample‹ with ke’u I found in the canon is from Prrton and there it works quite a different way… Would be great if you, or somebody else, could check again if this sentence really works.

For me, your example should be kea tawtute ke fpxiväkìm fìtseng.

Thoughts? :)


I agree with your change.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #73 on: April 30, 2010, 12:16:33 pm »
Hmm, the only example I'm aware of is the following one from here

Quote
Poltxe oe, san zene ke  uniltìranyu ke’u ziva’u fìtseng.
I have said, 'No avatar may come here.'

Which if you'll compare functions the same way (I think) as my example.  But part of me agrees with you guys.  Could you provide a link to Prrton's example and I'll investigate?
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #74 on: April 30, 2010, 12:28:52 pm »
Sure,

Wiki-Canon
and
in the Forum Language Updates

I ended up using
Ke’u to Toruk ke lu apxa.
Nothing is bigger than a Toruk.
which I’m not sure about since here, ke’u functions as a kind of pronoun/subject. I’m not sure whether one can use it like that.

Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2010, 01:53:47 pm »
I think your example works just fine.  I also think that Prrton's example uses ke'u as the noun as well.  Since it seems that the only canonical examples we have are when the ke...ke'u is associated with "nothing" as the subject, I'll change my example to something along those lines in the next update.

Perhaps this would be a good question for K. Pawl.
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2010, 01:01:34 pm »
Ma neo, I was just helping someone on facebook get the hang of the tricky ew dipthong.

In doing so they told me about the current description of it in the nutshell document which, whilst I appreciate how difficult it is to explain, I feel is a bit misleading.

You say ew is like the oa in oasis backwards. In my accent at least the oa is actually owej (pseudo-IPA) and, whilst when reversed this becomes jewo which has the ew dipthong in it, I think many people will incorrectly reverse it as ejow as in their minds the dipthongs are one vowel (and they are sort of right).

I'd propose possibly making a whole note about how to pronounce it because it is the one vowel sound that people consistently struggle with (ignoring pseudo-vowels for now), if you were to do this note, what I've found often helps people who are struggling to get it right is as follows:

it should be the normal na'vi e followed by a w, as the dipthong is spelt the way you make it.

I found that trying to say tewti (wow) is what made me get this.

Basically make the normal te sound then do an exaggerated w then the ti.

It should sound a tiny bit like (BUT DEFINITELY NOT THE SAME AS) eu (sorry about the caps, just wanted to make the warning very clear).

Gradually, remove the ti and soften the w.



Also, I noticed that your examples for a are highly regional (most of the others seem reasonably universal to me) so you might want to specify what accent you're basing them on (I'm assuming it's GA). Unfortunately in most Great British accents (my teacher's northern Irish one has it) a is missing entirely which makes it difficult to give examples, luckily, given the prevalence of American TV, a note saying that it's in GA should suffice.

Also, you say that kx, tx and px have a pop or click. A click is definitely wrong, and changing this should be a priority. In fact, given how easy it is to accidentally click instead of eject, you might want to say a pop not a click.

Again, for the r you might want to specify that this is in GA as in British accents it doesn't work (we'd pronounce them as t, t and d (or often glottal stops when it's 'dropped') instead).

In 2.1.1. you talk about matching for case, this should be number.

In 3.2. Language note 3.3 you say we have tsa meaning it. Tsa isn't it, tsaw is and the w is ellided when it is put into a case.

Language note 3.5 I'm not sure where this came from, I can't find anything from Frommer about it, I presume you're extrapolating from awngeyä but I don't like how something that seems unattested is being spouted as a rule.

Language note 3.7 is this attested?

Language note 4.3 again, this sounds like supposition (a reasonable one mind you) in which case it shouldn't be put in as if it is a hard fact.

4.2 pronunciation note, Frommer said it often becomes we not must, slight wording change needed.

4.3 Yay! Glad to see someone taking the "learn the rest first" approach.

5.2 Mood is a bad term as it can be confused with subjunctive/indicative/imperative etc. you might want to change this to effect or opinion or something similar.

5.4 You only cover in passing that it is also a conditional instead focussing solely on its modal, subjunctive and optative uses.

Page 17, should use tok not lu.  ;)

5.5 Third example (actually the sentence I play the drums) is idiomatic, should be replaced.

5.7 In this context fpìl is intransitive so it would be ngat(i) not ngaru.

6.1.2 <us> is <0> (not that I can see a case when it'll matter)

6.1.3 as above regarding <awn>

7.2. fiay? I presume you were trying to show the intermediate step in between fì and fay which would be fìay, as far as I know this is unattested and shouldn't be in here as if it is a usable prefix.

8. 4) No. The first position is the focus (the most emphasis), the end is an extra punch that is just a bit more focussed on than any position other than first, you imply that it is the focus.

8.1.5 another reference to tsa=it, should be tsaw

9.1.1. "just used for effect" implies that is optional. It might be better to drop that bit of the explanation and leave it as is. Also, you don't mention that it is optional for animals. You might also want to include the group-noun (brain's failing me right now) vocative here as well (I know it wasn't around when this was last updated).

9.7 most of the others are idioms, I see no reason to single this one out.  ;)

9.10 I definitely don't like the look of the second will you help us sentence. It would actually mean "whether you will help us or not" which makes no sense as a question. Also, the theorising about whether fuke might replace srak, whilst good, doesn't really belong in a beginner's document. IMO



I just read through most of it having answered said person (see the top), I skipped the passage on mood because I didn't really have time. I think those are all the changes I think that should be made. Quite a few are minor changes or just recommendations though.
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Offline Plumps

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2010, 01:55:06 pm »
Ma kemeoauniaea,

although I didn’t compile this amazing work, I did research myself for translating it into German. Though Neo might want to give his comments himself to all of your valid points, I feel confident enough to comment on a few points of your list, since I searched them myself ;)


Language note 3.5 I'm not sure where this came from, I can't find anything from Frommer about it, I presume you're extrapolating from awngeyä but I don't like how something that seems unattested is being spouted as a rule.
It is attested in so far as Frommer has given examples of the short form of it. Why would the short form behave differently than its longer variant?
Here (13 Feb) and here (31 Jan) in the canon.
Hetuwongìl awngeyä swotut ska'a, fte kllkivulat keruseya tskxet.
Irayo 'eylanur awngeyä Prrton a kxeyeyti rolun.

Language note 3.7 is this attested?
It is here:
Quote from: Frommer, 22 March to wm.annis
Ngey 'upxareri irayo. (As you probably know, dropping the -ä on the genitive pronouns is colloquial and informal.)

Language note 4.3 again, this sounds like supposition (a reasonable one mind you) in which case it shouldn't be put in as if it is a hard fact.
Have a look at wm.annis’s »Na’vi Cheat Sheet« thread where he states that Frommer looked over the grammar. Under »Pronoun and Deixis« you’ll find exactly that point – plus a confirmation of LN#3.5.

4.3 Yay! Glad to see someone taking the "learn the rest first" approach.
That was the very reason I decided to translate it :D

7.2. fiay? I presume you were trying to show the intermediate step in between fì and fay which would be fìay, as far as I know this is unattested and shouldn't be in here as if it is a usable prefix.
Agreed, I should change that in the German version as well.

Offline kewnya txamew'itan

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2010, 02:04:34 pm »
1. Why wouldn't it? It seems reasonable to assume it but it should certainly be made clear that doing so is based on assumption that it does so. Actually, RE:3 I stand corrected.

2. Oh good. I was wondering about this myself and thought this might be true, I'm glad I have a source now, my search-fu failed me.  :D

3. I stand corrected then.
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Offline NeotrekkerZ

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Re: Na'vi in a Nutshell
« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2010, 02:57:23 pm »
I'll get back to you both on all the comments later tonight.  The one thing I will address right now is fiay:

I originally had it as fay, then I think it was wm.annis who told me about the variant fiay.  At the time I thought it was slightly odd to have it, but I included it because I figured I missed the post or something.  But I still haven't seen any confirmation about it, or its use any where, so I think I'll get rid of it.  Why have a version with an extra syllable anyway?
Rìk oe lu hufwemì, nìn fya’ot a oe tswayon!

 

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