Author Topic: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)  (Read 4666 times)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2014, 04:57:26 pm »
Beware the edits, ma tsmukan...

I haven't read a lot the blog, so it can lead me to mistakes.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 05:02:13 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2014, 04:59:36 pm »
Well, zeyko isn't a verb, it is only a special form of a verb.

Compare it to how you might see done in an English dictionary since it has the specific meaning ready. But you still cannot take the participle of done (doned?  ;D).

Edit: kind of ninja'ed  ;)
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2014, 05:00:58 pm »
Beware the edit as well for your question about vezeyko. :)

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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2014, 05:03:25 pm »
It has to be mentioned in the dictionary.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2014, 05:07:20 pm »
It has to be mentioned in the dictionary.
It is:

zeyko: [zEj."k·o] PF vtr. heal, fix (derived from
zo be well and «eyk» causative infix
)


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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2014, 05:12:11 pm »
Well, there are missing details.
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Offline Blue Elf

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2014, 07:15:09 am »
Well, zeyko isn't a verb, it is only a special form of a verb.
It is verb :) with infix inside
As we know, that infix positions are z<0><1><2>o, zeyko is z<eyk><1><2>o, so position <0> is already occupied - and you can't put <äp/eyk> again
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Offline `Eylan Ayfalulukanä

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2014, 04:14:49 pm »
zeyko is a special case of an inflected word used by K. Pawl in one of his posts, emails, etc. The original author of the dictionary (Taronyu) established a rule where if Pawl made special mention or use of an inflected form of a word, that word appeared in the dictionary, despite not being in lexical form. If you look through the dictionary, you will actually find there are a fair number of these words. And I believe in most cases, they are noted as inflected forms.

A case could be made for removing them from the dictionary. An equally strong case could be made for leaving them in. This is a discussion, though (and I believe it has been previously discussed somewhere) for a different forum and topic.

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2014, 01:07:35 pm »
(See this post for background :))

The infix locations for hena were wrong; I fixed those. I also built in a special case for zenke, since it has strange infixes. For example, zen-uy-eke. You can see that the infix locations for zenke are now shown as z.en.(e)ke, and the -e- is inserted when uy or ats is used.

Irayo ma Kame Ayyo'koti, Vawmataw, Plumps sì Tìtstewan for noticing the hena problem and talking about zenke :)
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2014, 03:56:53 pm »
Ma Wllìm:
Quote from: dict-navi.com
z·am·engke   PST   simple past
z·ìm·engke   PST   close past (just {verb}ed)
z·ìy·engke   FUT   close future (will {verb} soon)
z·ay·engke   FUT   future
z·ol·engke   PFV   perfective (finished)
z·er·engke   IPFV   imperfective (unfinished)
zeng·ei·ke   LAUD   amelioration (favorable connotation)
zeng·äng·ke   PEJ   pejorative (negative connotation)

Btw, we were talking about zeyko, not about zenke. ;)
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Offline Tirea Aean

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #50 on: November 04, 2014, 04:00:47 pm »
Yeah, despite zenke being pronounced as "zengke", the g never really makes it into the official spelling.

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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #51 on: November 04, 2014, 04:01:30 pm »
Ma Wllìm:
Quote from: dict-navi.com
z·am·engke   PST   simple past
z·ìm·engke   PST   close past (just {verb}ed)
z·ìy·engke   FUT   close future (will {verb} soon)
z·ay·engke   FUT   future
z·ol·engke   PFV   perfective (finished)
z·er·engke   IPFV   imperfective (unfinished)
zeng·ei·ke   LAUD   amelioration (favorable connotation)
zeng·äng·ke   PEJ   pejorative (negative connotation)

Btw, we were talking about zeyko, not about zenke. ;)

And Plumps typed it wrongly...
It must be:

z·am·enke   PST   simple past
z·ìm·enke   PST   close past (just {verb}ed)
z·ìy·enke   FUT   close future (will {verb} soon)
z·ay·enke   FUT   future
z·ol·enke   PFV   perfective (finished)
z·er·enke   IPFV   imperfective (unfinished)
zen·ei·ke   LAUD   amelioration (favorable connotation)
zen·äng·ke   PEJ   pejorative (negative connotation)


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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #52 on: November 04, 2014, 04:03:07 pm »
oh! Irayo!
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Offline Vawmataw

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2014, 06:27:16 pm »
fngä' (relieve oneself) and 'ia (lose oneself [spiritually]) can't take -äp-.

More info:
http://naviteri.org/2013/04/wheres-the-bathroom-and-other-useful-things/comment-page-1/#comment-2297
« Last Edit: November 06, 2014, 06:31:05 pm by Vawmataw »
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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2014, 08:15:06 am »
Ah, thanks for noticing! +1 :) So the buttons for äp and awn should be disabled for all intransitive verbs, right?

Unfortunately the tool don't know which verbs are transitive and which ones are intransitive, so I need to think about this a little bit. Maybe I can add a database of which verbs are transitive... :-\
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 08:21:38 am by Wllìm »
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2014, 09:02:53 am »
<awn> works only with transitive verbs. <äp> is weird. Usually, it work with transitive verbs only, but there is the nice thing, that some si-verbs have <äp> inside and such verbs are intransitive.
These are the current known säpi verbs:
lew säpi
win säpi
ioi säpi
piak säpi
tstu säpi
« Last Edit: November 07, 2014, 09:13:09 am by Tìtstewan »

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Offline Wllìm

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #56 on: November 07, 2014, 09:29:43 am »
Okay, that's useful, thank you :)

Whoo, even more complexity in the code ::)
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Offline Kemaweyan

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #57 on: November 07, 2014, 09:42:09 am »
I think we can use -äp- with si-verb if that action could have a direct object. Even if grammatically the verb is intransitive, sometimes an action anyway could have a direct object. I call such verbs «pseudo-transitive». For example an action «to open» by logic could have a direct object. But the verb piak si is a si-verb and could not have a direct object with -ti. Instead we use -ru. So I think that -äp- could be used in pseudo-transitive verbs.
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Offline Tìtstewan

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #58 on: November 07, 2014, 09:55:42 am »
I found that line about <äp> in intransitive on Na'viteri:
[...]
But what happens if the verb is intransitive? Reflexive –äp- is only used with transitive verbs (and some si- constructions).
[...]
and some more example about reflexive thing like:

Moe smon moeru fìtsap.
‘We know each other.’

Po yawne lu snor.
‘He loves himself.’

etc.

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Re: Grammar tools (nouns, verbs, adjectives)
« Reply #59 on: November 07, 2014, 03:29:06 pm »
I found that line about <äp> in intransitive on Na'viteri:
[...]
But what happens if the verb is intransitive? Reflexive –äp- is only used with transitive verbs (and some si- constructions).
[...]
and some more example about reflexive thing like:

Moe smon moeru fìtsap.
‘We know each other.’

Po yawne lu snor.
‘He loves himself.’

etc.

This.^

I think we can use -äp- with si-verb if that action could have a direct object. Even if grammatically the verb is intransitive, sometimes an action anyway could have a direct object. I call such verbs «pseudo-transitive». For example an action «to open» by logic could have a direct object. But the verb piak si is a si-verb and could not have a direct object with -ti. Instead we use -ru. So I think that -äp- could be used in pseudo-transitive verbs.

So you're saying that *oe srung säpi is valid..?
I'm not so sure. I'd say it has to be oe srung si oer.
The exceptions are exceptions, and everything else operates under the rule normally.

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