Proper Case Endings Chart

Started by Tìtstewan, July 21, 2014, 02:18:32 PM

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Tìtstewan

This thread was born by a split from the Dictionary thread

Now it has been officially confirmed, that one can write:
kelutralti or kelutralit

But this won't affect the rule regarding case ending on diftongs:
-r-ru-ur-t-ti-it
ey-keyeyrukeyeyurkeyeytkeyeyti-
ay-wayruwayurwaytwaytiwayit
ewfahewrfahewru--fahewtifahewit
aw'etnawr'etnawru'etnawur-'etnawti'etnawit


- by Wllìm

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Wllìm

#1
Irayo ma Tìtstewan :) I am going to study those rules in more detail... I now see that -ti for consonant endings is actually also in the Horen lì'fyayä, so I just missed it, I guess

Edit: To better understand the rules, I made the following flow-chart of all allowed endings for nouns. Perhaps this is also useful for others :)

Tìtstewan

#2
Quote from: Wllìm on July 22, 2014, 07:51:44 AM
Edit: To better understand the rules, I made the following flow-chart of all allowed endings for nouns. Perhaps this is also useful for others :)
awesome!
two exceptions:
soaia -> gen: soaiä
omatikaya -> gen: omatikayaä
no y

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Wllìm

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 22, 2014, 09:46:11 AM
awesome!
two exceptions:
soaia -> gen: soaiaä
omatikaya -> gen: omatikayaä
no y
'Ä'! Irayo! :) According to Horen it is soaiä however (3.1.1.2), I have put that in :)

Tìtstewan

Embarrassing typo. Fixed.
Well, I believe, this part belongs somewhere else (off topic) ;D anyway, +1 for that useful graphics!

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Tirea Aean

Totally awesome chart! It has a place in Learning Resources, I think. :) +1

Wllìm

Irayo, ma mesmuk! :D
Sorry for off-topic, I'll make a separate thread in Learning Resources. :)

Tìtstewan

Or, Tirea just split this thread and move that part to the learning resource. :)

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Tirea Aean

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 22, 2014, 12:27:19 PM
Or, Tirea just split this thread and move that part to the learning resource. :)

Done.

Wllìm


Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 21, 2014, 02:18:32 PM
Now it has been officially confirmed, that one can write:
kelutralti or kelutralit

It's only for kelutral? Or maybe for any words which end on -l? Or for any words with consonant in ending? :-\ And what about another cases?
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

#11
that with kelutral was just an example...
You have the choise to decide if you want to use -ti or -it on consonants.
...and this:
Quote from: Tirea Aean on July 20, 2014, 01:01:33 PM
Here's the dialogue from the Worksheet:

Quote
A. Ma tsmuk, tìng oeru ngeyä hawre'ti, rutxe.

    Brother/Sister, give me your hat, please.
B. Ngaru fì'u.

    Here it is. OR It's yours.
A. Irayo nìtxan.

    Thanks very much.

From this we also see (and there were other instances during the lesson) that -ti and certain endings most of us once thought forbidden to come after words ending in consonants, do just that: hawre'ti. I think this feels natural and makes sense. Other such words were

QuoteEytukanit/-ti

and others that were not printed, and I managed to grab a photo of

Quotepefmawn-it/-ti

Edit:
Which other cases? This is only for the -it / -ti endings

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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 23, 2014, 08:51:06 AM
Which other cases? This is only for the -it / -ti endings

This. I meant -ru/-ur and others... But you already answered. Irayo.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

Tirea took a photo of the board:

...there you will see "pefmawn-it/-ti

I never saw "Eytukanru", it should be "Eytukanur". (Ma Tirea, rutxe, srung sivi oer. Kxawm nga atsomum fì'uteri, srak?)


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Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 23, 2014, 09:02:53 AM
I've never saw "Eytukanru", it should be "Eytukanur". (Ma Tirea, rutxe, srung sivi oer. Kxawm nga atsomum fì'uteri, srak?)

I just guess that if there is fmawnti, maybe Eytukanru also could be correct :-\ But I'd prefer Eytukanur anyway :)
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Tìtstewan

I write following line to clarify and not to confuse people:

A)
As for the -ti / -it endings on consonats: they are (now officially) interchangable. -> C-ti or C-it (which has been confirmed by Tirea Aean)
Examples:
Eytukanti - Eytukanit
pefmawnti - pefmawnit
kelutralti - kelutralit
hawre'ti - hawre'it

etc.



B)
Regarding the diphtongs, my table base on this Na'viteri post by Pawl, see the part:
A NOTE ON CASE ENDINGS WITH DIPHTHONGS
The information is written in text, and I created once that table to show it easier for beginners etc.
-r-ru-ur-t-ti-it
ey-keyeyrukeyeyurkeyeytkeyeyti-
ay-wayruwayurwaytwaytiwayit
ewfahewrfahewru--fahewtifahewit
aw'etnawr'etnawru'etnawur-'etnawti'etnawit


So, one can use on following diphtongs following case endings:
ey  -ru, -ur, -t, -ti
ay  -ru, -ur, -t, -ti, -it
ew  -r, -ru, -ti, -it
aw  -r, -ru, -ur, -ti, -it



C)
Quote from: Kemaweyan on July 23, 2014, 09:06:15 AM
Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 23, 2014, 09:02:53 AM
I've never saw "Eytukanru", it should be "Eytukanur". (Ma Tirea, rutxe, srung sivi oer. Kxawm nga atsomum fì'uteri, srak?)

I just guess that if there is fmawnti, maybe Eytukanru also could be correct :-\ But I'd prefer Eytukanur anyway :)
Tì'efumi oeyä, this could be "theoretically" correct because it would be the same scheme like -it/-ti, but I didn't see (or didn't observed) that way of use (I DID read ALL posts of the whole Pamrel, Pamtseo and the nìNa'vi nì'aw boards - more details on that in a few days...)

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Plumps

... 'officially confirmed' – this 'rule' has been used by Pawl throughout the years over and over again.
If one reads carefully through the material that we have so far one can find several examples of this.

I still keep to it. It's speaker preference. If it suits you, you can say Eyktanru – I wouldn't use it either because for me personally, it's hard to pronounce while I don't have problems with Eyktanti. I think that has a lot to do with how consonant clusters occur in your native language (in German, the combination -nt- and -nd- is quite common, so I gues there's the reason for that in my speech preference).

Concerning -ru/-ur
Most notabely K. Pawl used C-ru in forms with the glottal stop, i.e. ayolo'ru and lì'fyaolo'ru but these are the only examples I could think of off the top of my head.

My understanding of it is this:
     - as long as the syllable rules are not broken you can choose either form.
     - i.e. maximum onset, eyktanru is fine because it's eyk.tan.ru wheras *eyktanr is obviously not correct ;)

Kemaweyan

Quote from: Tìtstewan on July 23, 2014, 09:37:13 AM
Tì'efumi oeyä, this could be "theoretically" correct because it would be the same scheme like -it/-ti, but I didn't see (or didn't observed) that way of use (I DID read ALL posts of the whole Pamrel, Pamtseo and the nìNa'vi nì'aw boards - more details on that in a few days...)


I agree. Theoretically there are no impossible syllables, so it could be correct. But it doesn't mean that we should use that.
Nìrangal frapo tsirvun pivlltxe nìNa'vi :D

Blue Elf

Quote from: Plumps on July 23, 2014, 09:48:27 AM
... 'officially confirmed' – this 'rule' has been used by Pawl throughout the years over and over again.
If one reads carefully through the material that we have so far one can find several examples of this.
I also remember that -ti was always allowed after consonant, so Americe wasn't found, just found again :)  But repetiton - mother of the knowledge :)
Who knows Xellos is not surprised too - he uses -ti ending very often with consonants (if not always).
Oe lu skxawng skxakep. Slä oe nerume mi.
"Oe tasyätxaw ulte koren za'u oehu" (Limonádový Joe)