Video Lessons on Na'vi Affixes - Discussion Thread

Started by Ftiafpi, December 21, 2011, 10:38:33 PM

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Ftiafpi


Niri Te

 Please allow me to be the first numeyu to thank you for doing this, I know that these will be a help to many of us.
Niri Te
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Ateyo Te Syaksyuk

#2
IRAYO MA FTIAFPI!  
I INTEND TO USE THESE.
I SAW THE FIRST ONE ALREADY.  JUST MAKE YOUR LETTERING LARGER.
WE ARE VERY EXCITED. THE FIRST LESSON IS EASY AND WELL EXPLAINED.
LOOKING FORWARD TO REVIEWING THESE WITH NIRI TE TOMORROW!
ATEYO TE SYAKSYUK

Carborundum

Excellent work! Instructional videos such as these are a great resource for newcomers.

Corrections/comments:
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Tirea Aean

lesson 2 'i'awn really is 'ì'awn with accented i in the dictionary.

you forgot to mention how compound verbs are weird amd sometimes have very unexpected infix locations.

yomtìng, yemstokx, etc



otherwise ninjad by Carborundum, more comments to come as i continue to watch these, if Carborundum hasnt said it yet.

Ftiafpi

Thanks everyone, I knew that I probably made a lot of pronunciation mistakes as my Na'vi is quite rusty these days and I was focusing more on grammar during the videos. I'll make notes over the videos about the problems you mentioned so that people know to do as I say, not as I do. Didn't know about perfective vs perfect, I'll make a note in the video. My bad on the affects vs mood, I believe I got confused due to some inconsistency between various Na'vi related documents, I'll note this as well. Whoops, also my bad on omum, I believe I had the dictionary entry in front of me and must have mistaken the infix positions for the syllable breaks.

Darn taron, that's a old, old habit of mine that I apparently have fallen back into. Ugh, so rusty...

Ah! When I wrote up notes for the 6th video I knew there was 4 but couldn't find it, silly me forgetting <ats>.

Ma Tirea, I deliberately left them out to avoid overwhelming people but you're right I should have mentioned it somewhere. I'll definitely make a note of it on the video. Did I really spell 'ì'awn wrong? That was silly.

Thanks again everyone, I'm so glad to have more eyes and ears on this to make sure I don't make stupid mistakes.

Tirea Aean

#6
came to say you forgot ats which is much more commo  and useful than uy. i would have skipped uy in favr of ats.

also i cant see the whiteboard, darn mobile youtube bad quality, ive been more listening than watching. afaik you had the accent in but doubted yourself amd took it out and made it 'i'awn.

video 6 part 1:

"sraw. sraw means to dance" ew!=aw. but as you said, this is more a grammar vid series not pronunciation series.

lesson 6 part 2:

1:36 you have it backwards. if a noun ends in o or u, use ä. else if endsIn i, ì, a, ä, e: use yä.

edit: it appears the vid therafter explains correctly

I like how I get mentioned at 4:15 and 5:39 ;D

I would really like to have seen tsuk-, ketsuk-, -tsyìp, and -vi. but thats ok, this was a really good non exhaustive series about how affixes WORK :D irayo

sänume means teaching/instruction. a much broader term than sänumvi, which is the word you were looking for, Lesson

Tanri

Txantsana tìkangkemvi ma Ftiafpi :)
Only one notice remains for me to say: In the video 6 part 1 (time 12:00), <ìyev> doesn't mean subjunctive with recent future, only future. It is an alternative to <iyev>, different only by pronounciation.
Tätxawyu akì'ong.

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Tanri on December 22, 2011, 01:58:38 PM
Txantsana tìkangkemvi ma Ftiafpi :)
Only one notice remains for me to say: In the video 6 part 1 (time 12:00), <ìyev> doesn't mean subjunctive with recent future, only future. It is an alternative to <iyev>, different only by pronounciation.


OH YES I meant to say that too.

ìyev == ayy + iv

ay, iv --> y, i_v --> iyv --> iyev (-->ìyev)
ìy, iv --> y, i_v --> iyv --> iyev (-->ìyev)

iyev == ìyev == the future subjunctive (it cannot differentiate between recent or general future)

same for am. imv is the past subjunctive, ilv and irv, the perfective subjunctive and imperfective subjunctive respectively.

I was thinking while watching this: yo dawg I heard you like infixes, so we put infixes in yo infixes.... HRHH

Niri Te

WOW!! You just went WAAAY over my head. I am just hoping that by the time next Meetup rolls around, I can carry on the spoken conversation of a six year old Na'vi. For me to discuss, or even understand what you are talking about is like Tee trying to understand me and my friends when we discuss Aerodynamics, Astronomy, or Physics.

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 22, 2011, 02:29:29 PM

iyev == ìyev == the future subjunctive (it cannot differentiate between recent or general future)

same for am. imv is the past subjunctive, ilv and irv, the perfective subjunctive and imperfective subjunctive respectively.
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Tirea Aean

Quote from: Niri Te on December 22, 2011, 03:02:49 PM
WOW!! You just went WAAAY over my head. I am just hoping that by the time next Meetup rolls around, I can carry on the spoken conversation of a six year old Na'vi. For me to discuss, or even understand what you are talking about is like Tee trying to understand me and my friends when we discuss Aerodynamics, Astronomy, or Physics.

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 22, 2011, 02:29:29 PM

iyev == ìyev == the future subjunctive (it cannot differentiate between recent or general future)

same for am. imv is the past subjunctive, ilv and irv, the perfective subjunctive and imperfective subjunctive respectively.

this is why I dont teach people with such terminology. its so much easier to use examples. basically what i was saying is that the <ìyev> infix isnt really from ìy anf iv, it just comes from putting the y from either <ay> or <ìy> inside iv. by doing this, you get iyv, which is against the rules, so it becomes iyev. and then sometimes, some people pronounce iyev as ìyev which is also okay. does this make more sense?

Niri Te

 LOTS more sense, THANKS. I was part of "The intellectual Gestapo" in math, or any of the sciences all the way from elementary School, all the way through College, but English gives me a headache. I learned to speak German and Samoan by total immersion, living in each of the countries for years, and refusing to speak English. My German is not without grammatical errors though.
Niri Te

Tirea Aean said:
this is why I don't teach people with such terminology. its so much easier to use examples. basically what i was saying is that the <ìyev> infix isnt really from ìy anf iv, it just comes from putting the y from either <ay> or <ìy> inside iv. by doing this, you get iyv, which is against the rules, so it becomes iyev. and then sometimes, some people pronounce iyev as ìyev which is also okay. does this make more sense?
[/quote]
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Carborundum

#12
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 22, 2011, 04:02:53 PM
by doing this, you get iyv, which is against the rules, so it becomes iyev.
iyv is not illegal (no more than ilv, imv or irv), but it is unstable. It is not hard to see why the transformation *kiyvame --> kiyevame occured.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Lance R. Casey

Quote from: Carborundum on December 22, 2011, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 22, 2011, 04:02:53 PM
by doing this, you get iyv, which is against the rules, so it becomes iyev.
iyv is not illegal (no more than ilv, imv or irv), but it is unstable. It is not hard to see why the transformation *kiyvame --> kiyevame occured.

Yes, it is, since y cannot end a syllable unless part of a diphthong, which iy is not, and yv is not a permissible onset cluster.

// Lance R. Casey

Ftiafpi

Battle of the Swedes! Round 2, FIGHT! ;)

Also, a further note is that <ìyev> is the preferred (and possibly required, IIRC) for kìyevame (source: email I got from Paul, I think I uploaded it to the wiki). I don't recall if it's preferred for other words but I know that is the case with kìyevame, perhaps because it's almost an idiom or at least a common phrase.

Tirea Aean

#15
Quote from: Ftiafpi on December 23, 2011, 09:21:46 AM
Battle of the Swedes! Round 2, FIGHT! ;)

Also, a further note is that <ìyev> is the preferred (and possibly required, IIRC) for kìyevame (source: email I got from Paul, I think I uploaded it to the wiki). I don't recall if it's preferred for other words but I know that is the case with kìyevame, perhaps because it's almost an idiom or at least a common phrase.

Personally, I SAY kiyevame. because for me it actually takes more work and attention to say kìyevame.

For sure the grave i spellng is more common because it looks cooler with the accent and because we saw kìyevame from Frommer several times until he told us what ìyev is (see above) and told us that iyev and ìyev are equivalent and equally acceptable. if anything, one would think iyev is more official because it is more directly derived of iv infixed with the future y. I think He said that i tends toward ì in iyev becauase of the i and e being related sounds in close proximity, and ì is sort of between i and e. I forget the linguistic term for this. the i laxes to ì. but for me, it's  not easier to say the ì in that way so that doesnt happen.

So for me, I tend to say kiyevame but write kìyevame. it doesnt really matter though, does it?

Niri Te

 Oh, you guys are going to be rolling on the floor laughing when Tee and I get up there for the meetup. For the most part, I sound like a Samoan when I speak it because the way that vowels are sometimes strung together, is similar to Samoan, so I just get in the habit up doing it when I'm paying so much attention to putting the right fixes in the right words. As a result, Tee copies me, and we both reinforce each other's habit. 
Niri Te
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi

Tirea Aean

HRH. now Im curious what Samoan sounds like. :D

(offtopic?)

Ftiafpi

Thanks for everyone's help, I've updated the video with annotations to clear up any mistakes or pronunciation blunders I made.

Niri Te

The only big difference is that the letter "E" is said like the "AY" in "SAY". I am VERY used to doing it, and will probably STILL be doing it when we get to Seattle.  (HEY, I'm of the "Samoana" clan, on a group of islands in the middle of the Eastern Sea, that's our Dialect). That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.  ;D ;) :)
The thing that trips up most English speakers who try to speak samoan, is that there often three or four vowels together, and you have to pronounce them all.
Niri Te

Quote from: Tirea Aean on December 23, 2011, 01:48:22 PM
HRH. now Im curious what Samoan sounds like. :D

(offtopic?)
Tokx alu tawtute, Tirea Le Na'vi