[Help] English

Started by MIPP, March 16, 2011, 05:04:36 AM

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MIPP

Hi!

First, I created this thread because I think many non-native english speakers in this forum may have doubts regarding the English language. So, I thought that this forum could teach a bit of English also, besides Na'vi.

This thread would be, then, to clarify one's doubts on this language.

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Actually, I have a doubt. Well, it is not exactly a doubt...
I am trying to help a friend of mine improving his English, but I cannot explain to him the difference between the present perfect and the past simple, although I usually know when to use one and when to user the other.

Could anyone explain it to me so that I can explain it to him?  :-\ In an easy way, he is not a linguistic and he has no knowledge on the subject...  :(
Na'vi for beginners | Dict-Na'vi.com

Hufwe lìng io pay, nìfnu slä nìlaw.
Loveless, Act IV.

Ftxavanga Txe′lan

The idea would have never occurred to me to create a thread about English, but I think it's actually very relevant and nice! :D Unfortunately though, English isn't my mother tongue either. :o But I can still try explaining what you asked. :)

I think the simple past is when the action occurred in the past and is completed. It started and finished at a specific time in the past, although that specific time might not be mentioned by the speaker. Specific time expressions such as at that moment, yesterday evening, one day, last month, two years ago are indicators of the simple past.

e.g. I read a book yesterday evening. My mom made steak for supper.
Both of these are actions that are now completely finished.

The present perfect is similar to the simple past, with the only difference that the action happening in the past occurs at an unspecified time. The exact moment doesn't matter and doesn't play any role. Specific expressions of time like the ones mentioned above cannot be used with the present perfect, but unspecified time expressions (yet, before, twice, several times, never, etc.) can be used.

e.g. I've been really hungry all day. He has never really liked her.
There is no exact moment for those two sentences - they simply happened at some point in the past.

Hope this could help a bit! :)

Stranger Come Knocking

#2
*thinks this should most definitely be stickied*

Well, I'm not much of a teacher, but maybe I can help a bit with verbs.  Note that this explanation is of American English.

Basic Constructions (for new learners)

simple present tense
Generally used with state of being verbs.  "I am hungry." indicates you are hungry now. All there is to it. :3

simple past tense
The lovely simple past tense is a statement of fact.  "I read a book."  Great.  You read a book some time in the past.  Doesn't matter if you finished the book or plan on going back to it or why you stopped reading; you just read the book.

simple future tense
The future tense is an indication that you will do something.  "I will read a book."  At some point in the future, you will read a book.  Doesn't matter why you will read it or where or how or when; you will just read the book.

present progressive/continuous
This is an ongoing action.  "I am reading a book."  You are in the process of reading a book; you are reading a book now as we speak.  Good for you.

past progressive/continuous
This is an ongoing action in the past.  "I was reading a book."  When you use this, the general implication is that while you were reading the book, something interrupted you, or something else happened.  "I was going to the store (but on my way...)"

future progressive/continuous
This is an ongoing action in the future.  "I will be reading a book."  This means you are definitely planning to read a book.

Odd (and sometimes irritating) Constructions (for advanced learners):

Every so often, someone chooses to rearrange a sentence to make it sound funny.  For example:

"He will be being interviewed while you're at lunch."

Switched around, it says "While you are at lunch, he will be being interviewed."

This is grammatically correct, despite the "will be being".  IT IS NOT CORRECT JUST AS "HE WILL BE INTERVIEWED!" >:( Why?  Because "are" in the subordinate clause is in the present tense.  Grammar Buff says: in a single sentence, all verbs must be in the same tense.

Wrong: While you are at lunch, he will be interviewed.
Right: While you are at lunch, he will be being interviewed.

Another construction that may be strange to foreigners is "has/have been"

"This computer has been used for almost 2 years." This basically means that over the space of two years, a computer was used, and the implication is usually, that it will continue to be used.  If you were to say "This computer was used for almost 2 years." the idea is that you used the computer for two years, and now you are throwing it away.

"We have been going over the plans for a new school." Same situation, only plural.  We were looking at plans, and chances are, we will still do so.  "We were going over plans for a new school." may be taken as we were going over plans, but now we're done.

Yes, there are situations where implications and intentions may change, but those situations must be learned through practice, experience, interaction.

However...there is a silver lining.  Most native English speakers won't feed you to Palulukan because not every single grammar rule is followed.  We break plenty of rules all the time. ;D But if you are intent on understanding the nitty-gritty complexities, that is something to keep in mind.
*************************************************************
Please let me know if I am not being clear on this. :)
I will not die for less
I dug my grave in this
Will I go before I fall
Or live to slight the odds?

These are my books.  You should check it out.  Speculative sci-fi murder mystery historical fiction.

Carborundum

#3
Quote from: Tanhì Mì Ton on March 16, 2011, 03:13:24 PM
Grammar Buff says: in a single sentence, all verbs must be in the same tense.
I'm not sure who Buff is, but he couldn't be more wrong. In a clause, all verbs must be in the same tense. The same is not true for a sentence. Simple example: 'I am tired because I slept poorly'.

As a result, this here sentence:
QuoteWrong: While you are at lunch, he will be interviewed.
Is actually Right.

This one is also correct:
QuoteRight: While you are at lunch, he will be being interviewed.
Albeit a lot more uncommon. It's called future-progressive-passive, because 'he will be being interviewed by someone'. A far more common construction is future-progressive-active: 'someone will be interviewing him'.

I also have a question: In the sentence below, should X be 'neither' or 'nor'? Why?

'I am not hungry and X is my sister.'


I realised this one is obvious; it should be 'neither' because 'and' and 'nor' are both conjunctions.

OK, follow-up question: Is this correct? Why/why not?

'I am not hungry nor is my sister.'

Another one: In this sentence, should X be 'I' or 'me', and should Y be 'is' or 'are'? Why?

'Neither X nor my sister Y hungry.'
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Amaya

#4
Quote from: Carborundum on March 16, 2011, 04:25:30 PM

OK, follow-up question: Is this correct? Why/why not?

'I am not hungry nor is my sister.'

It is correct, except that there should be a comma:  "I am not hungry, nor is my sister."


Quote
Another one: In this sentence, should X be 'I' or 'me', and should Y be 'is' or 'are'? Why?

'Neither X nor my sister Y hungry.'

Yes, that one's a bit more complicated.  First, there are two people being discussed, so the "y" should always be "are"

the second bit is where it gets weird, but there's a trick to make it MUCH easier!

the correct sentence is "Neither I nor my sister are hungry."  Now take out the sister, and return the verb to singular!  "Neither I nor my sister are am not hungry."

Putting it in the negative makes it a bit more complicated, so here are some more simple examples:

"She and her sister went to the park"  =  "She and her sister went to the park"  

vs.

"Her and her sister went to the park"  =  "Her and her sister went to the park"

"Mr. Jeffries and I both like to study Na'vi!"  =  "Mr. Jeffries and I both like to study Na'vi!"  

vs.

"Mr. Jeffries and me both like to study Na'vi!"  = "Mr. Jeffries and me both like to study Na'vi!"


Make sense?




(edited multiple times because I kept leaving typos ::) )

Carborundum

Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you Amaya. :)

QuoteFirst, there are two people being discussed, so the "y" should always be "are"
I thought for a moment it might be more complicated than that, but you are correct; the negative is what's confusing me. If we make it a positive statement instead, it's obvious it should be 'are' rather than 'is': 'I and my sister are hungry'.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Amaya

Quote from: Carborundum on March 16, 2011, 05:12:21 PM
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. Thank you Amaya. :)

QuoteFirst, there are two people being discussed, so the "y" should always be "are"
I thought for a moment it might be more complicated than that, but you are correct; the negative is what's confusing me. If we make it a positive statement instead, it's obvious it should be 'are' rather than 'is': 'I and my sister are hungry'.

*nod* except that's just a weeeee awkward.  In proper English it should be "My sister and I are hungry."  the "I" should never come first.

"He went with me and my brother" is slightly more acceptable, but even then it should really be "He went with my brother and me."

Oh, yes, in that last one?  It really is "me" not "I".  Do the deletion again and you'll see what I mean  ;)

Carborundum

Quote from: Amaya on March 16, 2011, 05:25:48 PM
In proper English it should be "My sister and I are hungry."  the "I" should never come first.
Now this is fascinating stuff! Why should the 'I' never come first?
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Payoang

Aside from the courtesy of never listing yourself first, it causes problems with verb matching:

I and my sister are hungry?
I and my sister am hungry?
I and my sister is hungry?

Carborundum

Quote from: Payoang on March 16, 2011, 05:42:01 PM
Aside from the courtesy of never listing yourself first, it causes problems with verb matching:

I and my sister are hungry?
I and my sister am hungry?
I and my sister is hungry?
Not sure I see what the problem with verb matching is, but courtesy makes sense I guess.
However, doesn't that mean 'neither my sister nor I are hungry' would be preferable to 'neither I nor my sister are hungry'?
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Payoang

Quote from: Carborundum on March 16, 2011, 05:49:42 PM
However, doesn't that mean 'neither my sister nor I are hungry' would be preferable to 'neither I nor my sister are hungry'?

Both of us are neither hungry.

Yes.

guest2859

My sister and I are not hungry.

Me nor my sister are hungry.

My sister is not hungry; neither am I. <--- Edit: Semicolon --->

My sister's stomach is in the state in which the digestive tract assumes that no more ingestion is needed to help the human body, and I am in the same state as her.

Just my say on that. Si por favor.

Amaya

Quote from: Nargacuga on March 16, 2011, 11:15:43 PM
My sister and I are not hungry.    YES

Me nor my sister are hungry.       NO <--this should be "Neither my sister nor I are hungry"

My sister is not hungry; neither am I. <--- Edit: Semicolon --->    YES

My sister's stomach is in the state in which the digestive tract assumes that no more ingestion is needed to help the human body, and I am in the same state as her.

Just my say on that. Si por favor.

Carborundum

I think I may be confusing myself, but now I'm wondering about this sentence:

'Either my sister or I X hungry'

What should X be? As above there are two people, but 'either... or' is an exclusive disjunction, so only one of them is hungry. None of 'am', 'is' or 'are' sound right to me. ???
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

'Oma Tirea

Quote from: Carborundum on March 17, 2011, 03:25:05 AM
I think I may be confusing myself, but now I'm wondering about this sentence:

'Either my sister or I X hungry'

What should X be? As above there are two people, but 'either... or' is an exclusive disjunction, so only one of them is hungry. None of 'am', 'is' or 'are' sound right to me. ???

It's are because you're ending with I and you're talking about more than just "I".

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Carborundum

Quote from: Sxkxawng alu 'Oma Tirea on March 17, 2011, 03:37:01 AM
Quote from: Carborundum on March 17, 2011, 03:25:05 AM
I think I may be confusing myself, but now I'm wondering about this sentence:

'Either my sister or I X hungry'

What should X be? As above there are two people, but 'either... or' is an exclusive disjunction, so only one of them is hungry. None of 'am', 'is' or 'are' sound right to me. ???

It's are because you're ending with I and you're talking about more than just "I".


Hmm, the Internet says it should be 'am'.
We learn from our mistakes only if we are made aware of them.
If I make a mistake, please bring it to my attention for karma.

Amaya

#16
In this case, actually, the internet is right, but it's a VERY common mistake made even by native English speakers.  You're right.  Because Either - or is exclusive, the correct one to use is "am". :D  If it were a slightly different sentance, like "Either Becky or my sister is hungry" it would be "is".  Stupid "I" and having to use a different word :o ;) ;D