A lost language...

[Atoki Atanyä]

Kaltxi frapo,

I just read this on the BBC website: BBC News - Last speaker of ancient language of Bo dies in India

It would appear that the ancient Indian language of Bo has just died out, and along with it, thousands of years of culture and history.

It's always sad when a people lose part of their culture, and in a case like this it is a tragic loss, possibly having held more knowledge about our own human race.

However, now that i think about it, how did these languages come about? Surely people discovered a common means to communicate with one another at some point along the line, and as the number of people grew, so did the language. That made me think. In a case like Na'vi, where the number of "speakers" (although we are all forever learning ), does this mark the development of a new language? In all seriousness, as the number of speakers grow, would Na'vi ever become a "recognised" language? Not in the sense that Klingon is "recognised", I mean for Na'vi to be a legitimate language. Surely, at some point along the line, if people were to speak it to one another sociably, and if younger and younger people began to learn it, it could grow to the status of a real language?

Well, that's my thought for the day out, just wanted to see what inquisitive reflections any of you had. Whilst it is tragic to lose a language, we can all hope that we can help a new one bloom.

So, your thoughts?

Kiyevame,

Atoki

[abi]

I mean for Na'vi to be a legitimate language. Surely, at some point along the line, if people were to speak it to one another sociably, and if younger and younger people began to learn it, it could grow to the status of a real language?

I'm sure if Esperanto could do it, Na'vi could.

[Ka'il]

I'm sure, eventually, if the support and number of people speaking it grows, eventually Na'vi could become a language. But it's not about becoming a legitimate language (Although, that is a tremendously huge step), it's about having a lot of people speak it. I actually had'nt heard of Esperanto until a week ago, and only because I asked my former Spanish teacher about it. I think it would be cool if Na'vi were more recognized than that. Like, maybe if everyone was aware of it, not just linguists and curious people who love different languages.

But yes, Na'vi as a legitimate language would be fricken' awesome. =D

~Apxa

[Atoki Atanyä]

I actually had'nt heard of Esperanto until a week ago, and only because I asked my former Spanish teacher about it. I think it would be cool if Na'vi were more recognized than that. Like, maybe if everyone was aware of it, not just linguists and curious people who love different languages.

~Apxa

Esperanto didn't have 3 movies....

Hopefully Avatar and it's sequels will change peoples mindset over the language, and maybe it will go mainstream. (Although at the moment I like the air of exclusivity for the perhaps 3000 "speakers" at the moment )

And to whoever moved this into the linguistics thread, txan irayo, I hadn't spotted the linguistics thread. The move was definitely needed.

[Eight]

Would be hard - on Wikipedia there's the story of the Klingon fan who tried to make his child the first ever native speaker... the child rejected the language later.

Having living speakers with Na'vi as a first language would be important to get it officially recognised.

[Kìte'eyä Aungia]

However, now that i think about it, how did these languages come about? Surely people discovered a common means to communicate with one another at some point along the line, and as the number of people grew, so did the language.

Well yeah, have you ever heard the phrase, "a language is a dialect with an army and navy"?

As for Na'vi becoming a real/legitimate/recognized language, it depends on what you mean. It's not like there's anyone with the authority to decide what is a "real" language and what is not. We still call Latin a "real" language even though it "died" and has about as many young speakers who learn it as a first language as Klingon or Na'vi.

[thg]

As for Na'vi becoming a real/legitimate/recognized language,

One thing that Na'vi needs is an ISO Language Code.  Klingon has one, tlh, and has an entry in the SIL Ethnologue

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=tlh

That would also probably get it on the list of languages in the OS X language list, enabling app localization in Na'vi if someone had the skill to do that.

Someone needs to look into the criteria for getting a code, not sure myself how it is done.

PS I have since found info on the criteria for giving a code to constructed languages and the procedures for requesting one:

http://www.sil.org/ISO639-3/types.asp

http://www.sil.org/ISO639-3/submit_changes.asp

[Tsu'roen]

... a natural language (or ordinary language) is any language which arises in an unpremeditated fashion as the result of the innate facility for language possessed by the human intellect. A natural language is typically used for communication, and may be spoken, signed, or written. Natural language is distinguished from constructed languages and formal languages such as computer-programming languages or the "languages" used in the study of formal logic, especially mathematical logic.

So a "real" (natural) language is one that developed (usually from an ancestral language) in a community as the means of daily communication. Even if the language later dies out it stays a real/natural language.

A planned or constructed language—known colloquially or informally as a conlang—is a language whose phonology, grammar, and/or vocabulary have been consciously devised by an individual or group, instead of having evolved naturally.

So constructed languages like Quenya (language of the Elves in LOTR which also has it's own writing system) Esperanto (spoken by up to 2 million people! including around 1000 native speakers), Klingon, Na'vi, can never become "real" (natural) languages because of their origin regardless how many people speak it as first or second language.
So the best we can get with Na'vi is becoming a widely recognized language with ISO recognition and as many speakers as possible. But natural language is out of reach.

And Latin hasn't died out at all! It was the language of the Roman Empire and it's successor the Catholic Church without (significant) interruption. It's children are alive and well: Italian, Romanian, Spanish, Portuguese, French, just to name a few. Even today's Latin as spoken by the catholic church or scientists is not the same Caesar and Cicero were speaking - it has evolved to some degree too.

[ShadowedSin]

A language is usually considered dead when the last natural fluent native speaker dies. And when I say fluency I refer to how some languages slowly become filtered with outside words and their syntax changes to suit that system.

Languages don't stay dead though. There are several that are seeing a revival many of which are the Native languages of America

[Atan'eveng]

I think it would take a huge effort to make Na'vi a real language. There's no real need for it to happen. It's cool but...even if it actually becomes a real language I don't think it will survive for generations like the other real languages.  Like klingon, it's spoken only by fans. The boy whose father tried to teach him klingon just rejected it. Why? because it's an incomplete language and with no native speaker so it's not necessary. If there were a group of people that could only speak Klingon, than it would be different.
I think the same will happen to Na'vi. So...let's hurry with our Na'vi-Earth-Pandora-camp ( ) right now so this won't happen 

[Plumps]

... a natural language (or ordinary language) is any language which arises in an unpremeditated fashion as the result of the innate facility for language possessed by the human intellect. A natural language is typically used for communication, and may be spoken, signed, or written. Natural language is distinguished from constructed languages and formal languages such as computer-programming languages or the "languages" used in the study of formal logic, especially mathematical logic.

So a "real" (natural) language is one that developed (usually from an ancestral language) in a community as the means of daily communication. Even if the language later dies out it stays a real/natural language.

And that was defined by whom? It all comes down to definitions... If you let yourself restricted by them then the possibility that is inherent in a constructed language is already dead.

Sure, there is a distinction between natural languages and constructed ones ... but who says there wasn't a really bored ape in a dark whole under the ground who said to himself "I will call this 'cave'!" ... and the herd followed?
I think there are a lot of invented/constructed words in hour natural languages that made it to acceptance.

I think the key point here is the development from a constructed language with rules to a natural approach that uses the rules to evolve. That means a group of speakers who know the grammar, lexikon etc. but starts to use them in a not-so-restricted way. That won't happen in the next 50 or 100 years but it could and that's a comforting thought

[Tsu'roen]

That definition comes out of linguistics. So if you don't like it fight it out with them. I can't do anything about it.

Also constructed languages can be owned and copyrighted by the creator or a company as it is so far with Na'vi.

Natural or constructed has nothing to do with dead or alive. There are plenty of dead natural languages while many constructed languages are very alive.
But until FOX gives Dr. Frommer the green light to release the language it is pretty much dead and frozen. We can't do much more about that than writing petitions to FOX. Should they say no we are pretty much dead in the water ...

Alive also means that the language evolves and grows.
We don't know if FOX actually wants that as it may interfere with their franchise plans.
I hope though they will see that it will benefit them to release it and create a strong following.

[ShadowedSin]

Alive also means that the language has a living breathing speech community and native speakers.

[Tsu'roen]

Alive also means that the language has a living breathing speech community and native speakers.

Yes! And as soon as it's alive it will evolve, change ... that's the nature of all living things including languages - And for the same reason science prefers more static languages like Latin and ancient Greek that won't change their meaning with every new generation.

[Rain]

But until FOX gives Dr. Frommer the green light to release the language it is pretty much dead and frozen. We can't do much more about that than writing petitions to FOX. Should they say no we are pretty much dead in the water ...

They can't take the tongues from our mouths or the knowlege from our heads. FOX isn't big enough yet and I doubt any of its execs would recognize Na'vi if it was spoken to them. Much less understand it.

[Toruk Makto]

Tam tam. Let's talk nice about the folks at Fox. They may be watching us! 

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

HEY FOX!

Spoiler

do a barrel roll!

[Toruk Makto]

But until FOX gives Dr. Frommer the green light to release the language it is pretty much dead and frozen. We can't do much more about that than writing petitions to FOX. Should they say no we are pretty much dead in the water ...

They can't take the tongues from our mouths or the knowlege from our heads. FOX isn't big enough yet and I doubt any of its execs would recognize Na'vi if it was spoken to them. Much less understand it.

  Without becoming excessively editorial, another hazard of necroposting is that the original post may no longer be relevant. Such is the case here. Since that first post, Dr. Frommer has solicited, received and acted on a list of words submitted by LearnNavi.org members. The language is quite alive and kicking, and Fox is in no way impeding this. I would ask that we be more genteel to the folks that made all this possible to begin with.