Elvish?

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

Does anyone knwo of any good sites (like this) that are for learning Elvish from LOTR?  I think it's a gorgeous language and I wouldn't mind at least learnign a few languages.  I love saying random things that moke no sense to others.

[wm.annis]

Does anyone knwo of any good sites (like this) that are for learning Elvish from LOTR?  I think it's a gorgeous language and I wouldn't mind at least learnign a few languages.  I love saying random things that moke no sense to others.

This is actually a very difficult question.

Here's the fundamental problem — it is meaningless to say, "how do I say this in Quenya?" (the formal Elvish) or "how do I say this in Sindarin?" (the "modern" language).  You can only ask, "how do I say this in Quenya as it existed in, say 1948?"  Tolkien never, ever stopped tinkering with his languages.  Over time, Quenya underwent radical changes.  At one point in its history lá meant "yes", and at another point, it meant "no."  Even simple translations into Elvish are frequently accompanied by pages and pages of notes justifying this or that decision.

Related is a cultural issue.  I know sometimes the Language Updates threads here can get pretty technical and sometimes even contentious.  This is nothing compared to Tolkien linguistics, which can sometimes get downright nasty.

With those warnings in place...

For beginners, Parma Tyelpelassiva is probably the best place to start.  He has primers for both Quenya and Sindarin, which are also available in print on demand editions (about half-way down the page).  These do a good balancing act between giving you the ability to actually say things in these languages, and historical and linguistic accuracy.

For very thorough studies embedded in ghastly webpage design, Ardalambion.  This is the web source for Tolkien linguistics.

Tolkien developed Sindarin less than Quenya.  But, Sindarin was the daily language, so for the films they had to concoct a lot of Sindarin.  This was handled by David Salo, a linguistics graduate student and frequent target of vituperation from other Tolkien language fans.  He wrote an entire book on Sindarin, A Gateway to Sindarin, which doesn't actually deal too much in what he concocted for the films.  It is not a book for an amateur.  You can find analysis of Film Sindarin here.

There are mailing lists, but most seem rather technical.  I can't really give advice on those.

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

Wow thank you so much!  I don't plan on actually conversing with anybody like I hoe to someday do in Na'vi but this is all very useful information.  I'll take a look at those sites.

Irayo again

[Lance R. Casey]

Further in the "ghastly webpage design" vein, I would also recommend Thorsten Renk's primer as a starting point.

And, agreed on Ardalambion. Fauskanger knows his stuff.

[Lisa]

Over time, Quenya underwent radical changes.  At one point in its history lá meant "yes", and at another point, it meant "no." 

So is that why Frodo, when talking to Gildor, quoted "Go not to the elves for counsel, for they will say both no and yes" ?   

[Txantslusam Skxawng]

I have tried this once, but I can't remember anything of it anymore

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Yah, another to-be Elvish learner! I can try helping you out a little bit.

I'd agree with wm.annis and Lance R. Casey: Ardalambion is definitely a GREAT source. It doesn't have a Sindarin course, only Quenya - but if you want information on any language of Middle-earth or wish to get a very complete grammatical and historical overview of Elvish, it's definitely the right place. The dictionaries, which you can print, are also absolutely great!

For my part, I'm beginning to learn with CouncilOfElrond, which has a very useful language section and really easy-to-understand lessons. Other than that, I recently found a pretty cool Sindarin course. It's in a document format (therefore easy to print) and it can be pretty useful - although I have to say the order in which the course is made seems a bit awkward to me.  

If you want to go deeper or check out some more advanced stuff to get an overview feeling of Elvish or other Middle-earth tongues, I suggest:
· the Elvish Linguistic Fellowship (including this section, which contains a whole lot of super interesting stuff)
· RealElvish for its varied and very nice content
· ArwenUndómiel, particularly its easily understandable Elvish section

You asked websites to learn Elvish - but as you probably know, you can learn either Quenya or Sindarin and have to choose between them (unless you want to do both, which would be perhaps a bit reckless! hehe). The interesting thing is that the two languages are extremely different from each other. It could be argued, for instance, that the first is "purer" and more "poetic" than the other. But really, they're both wonderful - it just comes down to your own preference. If ever it can help you, it may be noted (coming from Tolkien himself) that Quenya is inspired from Finnish, Latin and Greek, and that Sindarin resembles British, Welsh and Celtic languages. To make the right choice, listen to videos and read some texts from the websites that have been given to you. I bet you're probably going to fall in love with one more than with the other.

Anyways, I'm just beginning to learn Sindarin myself (although I've been messing around with Elvish for months ahah), so if ever you decide you want to learn it I'd find really nice to work together with you, if you'd like that.

Here are three Quenya videos, followed by three in Sindarin.

Spoiler

J.R.R. Tolkien reciting "Namárië"

quenya, umin harya lumë

Re: Oath of Feanorians (Quenya)

Tolkien - A Hymn to Elbereth

Elvish Quotes from Lord of the rings

the Riddle of Strider in Sindarin elvish

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

I like the site you gave me Txe'lan!  thanks so much!  Unfortunately I cannot view the videos on my school computer but I think I'm gonna try at Sindarian as well.  I'm looking at the dictionaries now

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

I like the site you gave me Txe'lan!  thanks so much!  Unfortunately I cannot view the videos on my school computer but I think I'm gonna try at Sindarian as well.  I'm looking at the dictionaries now

Nìprrte' Okay, great! The dictionaries are also a really good way to see your preference, that's true ˆˆ
So if you really stick with this idea, as I said we could learn in cooperation if you want

['Ì'awn Menari]

i would love to learn elvish too =D these maybe fictional languages but they've grown and it's always fun to learn them ^^

['Awpo]

I got interested in Quenya again thanks to this thread! I tried to learn it some time early. But I could never resist doing something else But know I think I will persist in learning it!

[Nyx]

It's been years since I meddled in this stuff, and now you're making me want to get back into learning Sindarin

[Tsufätu Ayioangä]

You guys should!  I would love to have a fleet of Na'vi over there

[Dreamlight]

Elvish?

Quenya or Sindarin?

Of course, I don't know either.

[Nyx]

You guys should!  I would love to have a fleet of Na'vi over there

I just might, as soon as I get some more time (exams and all), but I already have an account at Council of Elrond, just not a very active one

[Kì’onga Vul]

I was actually considering learning Quenya, and it came down to choosing between Quenya and Na'vi.

Ultimately, two things made me choose Na'vi over Quenya: Na'vi has an active community and the cooperation of its creator, and in Quenya you can never be absolutely sure if certain things you say are correct.

Having said that, I like the fact that Quenya is based off Finnish and that it has its own beautiful script, Tengwar.  (I personally enjoy writing things that no one else understands more than saying them.)
http://www.omniglot.com/writing/tengwar.htm

Just know that if you choose an Elvish language, it might be a more solitary pursuit, with less feedback.

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

Na'vi has an active community and the cooperation of its creator, and in Quenya you can never be absolutely sure if certain things you say are correct.

Just know that if you choose an Elvish language, it might be a more solitary pursuit, with less feedback.

These are two good points that are pretty important!

I might also add this: Before doing as I intended and really beginning with Sindarin, I did a deeper research about grammar and structure of both Sindarin and Quenya in order to be sure that I was making the best choice for me. And I discovered interesting facts that might be helpful to any person who doesn't know which branch to choose:

· Quenya's grammar is, technically speaking, easier that Sindarin (which is highly complex).
· Although one may often refer to German sounds when teaching Quenya, Sindarin is much more alike to German (soundly speaking) than Quenya is. If you're familiar with the English th in both this and thread and enjoy speaking these sounds a lot, Sindarin might be an appropriate choice. However, if you have facility with softer sounds (like there are in French, Finnish or Italian), Quenya is probably going to be easier for you to speak aloud.
· Quenya was Tolkien's favourite language and was more developed than Sindarin. So, considering this aspect, there are less ambiguities and uncertainties in Quenya: therefore you might be able to achieve a higher level in this language than you would in Sindarin.
· Quenya would be more adapted for poems and songs as well as written stuff in general, while Sindarin would perhaps be a better choice for daily chatting (well, I guess this can be argued, but it's what I've read).

Considering these aspects, I've finally decided to come back to what I had decided a year ago before changing my mind, and to choose Quenya instead of Sindarin. I'd fallen in love with the latter when watching the movies, but I've discovered with my research and by speaking texts aloud that Quenya would be a more appropriate choice for me.

To finish, here are two very beautiful and relevant quotes from the Ardalambion's introduction to the Quenya lessons

Of course, others may want to study Quenya to immerse themselves in Tolkien's fiction, with no pretensions of "scholarship" of any kind. [...] But one may grope towards "Elvishness" in a deeper sense than just trying to immerse oneself in fiction. [...] "The Elves represent, as it were, the artistic, aesthetic, and purely scientific aspects of the Humane raised to a higher level than is actually seen in Men" (Letters, p. 176). The seeking for such a "higher level" transcends all fiction. Tolkien's inner vision of this level he translated partly into pictures, much more prominently into narratives, but (to him) more importantly still, into the words and sounds of language. In Quenya his vision of Beauty lives on, awaiting those capable of comprehending and appreciating it.

One may study one of the languages Tolkien  painstakingly developed as one may study a musical symphony: a complex work of many interrelated parts woven into intricate beauty. Yet the symphony is fixed in its form, while a language can be infinitely recombined into ever new texts of prose and poetry, and yet retain its nature and flavour undiminished. One of the attractions of Quenya is that we can compose linguistic "music" ourselves just by applying Tolkien's rules. [...] Tolkien did not just make a symphony, he invented an entire form of music, and it would be a pity if it were to die with him.

[Txep swirä]

Hello,

I am sorry for necroposting in this topic but i have some questions about Elfish...

Since I red the Lotr books I felt in love with the Elfs and their language.
So I really want to try to learn this language.

I think that Sindarin is more usefull .
But witch one is used in the Lotr movies?

I want to use it for daily use, like thank you or saying good morning andkind of stuff (random chit-chat)
Writing is not necessary, but that can be fun too

greetings,

[wm.annis]

I think that Sindarin is more usefull .
But witch one is used in the Lotr movies?

It's mostly Sindarin in the movies.  However, Sindarin has more questions around it than Quenya does, just so you know.  David Salo, who did the Elvish dialog for the films, had to be quite creative from time to time.

The best introductions to Quenya and Sindarin are at Parma Tyelpelassiva.

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

I think that Sindarin is more usefull .
But witch one is used in the Lotr movies?

I want to use it for daily use, like thank you or saying good morning andkind of stuff (random chit-chat)
Writing is not necessary, but that can be fun too

Sindarin is the "every-day" Elvish language in the time of the LotR whereas Quenya, at that time, is mostly studied (by people like Bilbo and Frodo Baggins) or used in ceremonies, songs and poetry. So I think what you're looking for is Sindarin. However, as wm.annis said, that language is even less developed than Quenya, and it's rather complicated. Actually, I don't think a conversational level can be achieved easily with Sindarin because the language lacks vocabulary and definite grammatical concepts. Conversations about technology, for instance, would be almost impossible, and even when no specific vocabulary is required you might encounter difficulties. However, you can certainly learn a great deal of the language, and things such as "good morning" or "thank you" are entirely learnable.