A human return to Pandora

Started by kintìomum, January 27, 2010, 01:00:35 PM

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kintìomum

Ha, being interested in the means of interstellar travel and lately the ISVs in special pays off at last:
An ISV does carry enough fuel (antimatter for the m/am-reaction to start the process and hydrogen to supercharge the exhaust) for two burns from either 0.7c to 0 or reverse.
How I know that? The Well of Quotes (otherwise known as ASG) told me.
Outbound from Earth the ships are powered with "directed energy", in my guess a nice description for strong lasers doing the push against some solar sail on the ISV (not the flimsy solar panel array we see when the Venture Star heads in to Pandora, that one's for small scale electricity on board).
When the ships arrive at Pandora they have the fuel for decellerating and re-accelerating readily on board. They get refueled only in Earth orbit.

Now, on to who reaches Pandora first:
As Kaltxì palulukan stated it is highly likely that it will not be the RDA. Sure, they are the ones controlling the ISVs at the moment.
But it's almost the same as with tankers, freightships and container carriers and the coast of Somalia: pirates are few but score hits none the less.

Quote from: pbheadIf there were less than 200 survivers... its a non-issue... they are placed into stasis
Why should it be no problem if there are only 200 survivors? The cryo vaults looked a lot bigger to me and so far I haven't found numbers to state otherwise (I'm talking out of knowledge from ASG and movie here)
Could you state your sources? As far as I see your numbers are reasonable but I'd like to see the sources anyway.
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

"You don't dream in cryo" they say. Good! Imagine a 6-year-nightmare!

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pbhead

#21
the pandorapedia states that the ISV carriers 200 colonists and 25 crew from earth to pandora... I highly doupt they would have extra cryochambers.

And... i dont know if you got this... but the ISV carriers enough fuel for one burn.... , refuels at polymorph, for the second burn.... Once again, check out the pandorapedia. (assuming someone didnt mess it up).  You are right about the solar sail... once again, http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/isv_venture_star

You ever wonder why there are only 2 shuttles there? cause the other shuttles from all the other ISVs have been recommisioned to harvest hydrogen from polymorph... once again... that article is amazing and needs to be read.  (what... tell me you didnt think that they bring the shuttles back to earth did you?)



kintìomum

No, I never invested a thought in that matter.
But taking them back would be a waste in two ways:
First it's dead weight and that'd mean they would need more fuel to accelerate.
Second it's Earth they're returning to and they surely have the production capacity to spew out shuttles faster than the returning ISVs need them.

Well, if the ISVs carry only enough delta-V for one 0.7c burn this sheds some new light on the matter...
Then there's no way for the ISVs to stop and return. If you carry the fuel for one burn there's no way (known to me) to stop-and-turn.

Gonna think into that (and wonder where the pandorapedia got the additional infos).
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

"You don't dream in cryo" they say. Good! Imagine a 6-year-nightmare!

All Things Avatar: AIM for us on twitter!

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: kintìomum on January 29, 2010, 09:53:10 AM
No, I never invested a thought in that matter.
But taking them back would be a waste in two ways:
First it's dead weight and that'd mean they would need more fuel to accelerate.
Second it's Earth they're returning to and they surely have the production capacity to spew out shuttles faster than the returning ISVs need them.

Well, if the ISVs carry only enough delta-V for one 0.7c burn this sheds some new light on the matter...
Then there's no way for the ISVs to stop and return. If you carry the fuel for one burn there's no way (known to me) to stop-and-turn.

Gonna think into that (and wonder where the pandorapedia got the additional infos).

First thought: Let me add a third reason. Pandora is the great frontier. It is "out in the field," no different from Mars, or any "job-site." From a corporate management p.o.v., your largest issues will always be labor expenses (salaries, insurance, "life-support equipment," employee morale (they have to import women to Pandora--what a horrible job that is) etc.), so making slaves of Na'vi, or paying them 23 cents a day (like we currently do here on Earth) just makes sense. It was worth the effort. Failing that, you have to export humans (along with all of the emotional baggage they bring) to Pandora. This means a LOT of weight that is not directed specifically at equipment/tech transfer. Remember; everything that gets to Pandora is humped on your back (you carry it in). Anything you can create "on-site" is a bonus, and that is where the profits start to kick in, in cost-savings. The more crap that is not "unobtanium" you have to haul back to Earth (including laborers), the more you are cutting into your profits. There is a formula somewhere in accounting that states that the base net expenditure of a human life is $_____. (Sorry, I am assuming American dollars because I know where the $ sign is on my keyboard).

Compare that to the expense of hauling back someone, or leaving them on Pandora, if they have ANY job skills left (this assumes injury, nervous breakdown, or some other calamity). Given the nature of this, "the most dangerous job in the world/universe," the human attrition rate has to be in the high 20's (%), probably more if the hitch (term of service) is over 3 years "on planet." And given the time and money expenditure to get a human out to the big P in the first place, I can't imagine a hitch being LESS than 5 years. (Side note: Jake's term wasn't up in 3 weeks. The colonel pulled him offline--fast.)

Any dead weight must be shed to make room for unobtanium (or contraband :) ). Can someone hitch a ride back to Terra with a few stings pulled? Of course, but that puts THAT manager in a position of power, just like the "Supply Sergeant" has always been the center-point of quasi-legal trafficking to outright smuggling of indigenous goodies--and if we know one thing, it's that RDA execs get what they want--including the "evil space fish!!". To that end, I suspect that more "stuff" will (officially at least) ALWAYS go to Pandora than comes back. It just makes financial sense. Lighter ships coming back mean less energy req's. Given that unobtanium can be magnetically suspended, it may have no net weight at all (someone who knows astrophysics will have to correct me on this).

Second: Yeah, I am wondering where this secret source of specs is coming from. If it is a valid source we need to recruit them for our evil humanitarian plans endeavors.

2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

kintìomum

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on January 29, 2010, 11:04:34 AM
Pandora : the great frontier.
Good thinking, and that'd be the main reason why they have the large robotic factory on site.
They do some serious digging (the ASG states that the PIT was created in just a YEAR! That is if I didn't read the numbers totally wrong) and there will be some unwanted by-products to Unobtanium: iron, copper, bauxite (source for aluminium) and so on.
On a just slightly related note: Did you know that platinum was seen as an unwanted mix into silver in the 15th and 16th century? Silver bars were greatly reduced in value when they were polluted with platinum
Now, they have the choice to throw it back into the pit, poison the next river with it or -tadaa!- use it to build pretty much everything. New spoons needed? Well, two buckets of ore into this slot and wait an hour!

Quote
Compare that to the expense of hauling back someone, or leaving them on Pandora, if they have ANY job skills left (this assumes injury, nervous breakdown, or some other calamity). (snip) I can't imagine a hitch being LESS than 5 years.
There might be people coming back. But why should anyone that's sane enough after the first tour want to go back? When you survived that far you've kinda adapted to a world that "wants to eat your eyes like filled pralines" and returning to Earth: seriously, as comfortable as civilization might be you can always say "just one more ship, I'll go with the next. The load of money I earn will give me a much better life back home" and back home in that time means a world that's so polluted that you see grey area around and have to breathe through a filter mask or risk serious lung damage. You're breathing through a filter mask anyway and get paid for it! Why not stay and watch the nice green trees?
Norm talks about the terms of service when Jake asks "is this right? I'm just talking into the camera?" he answers "yes (scientific work and such) It'll also help keep you sane for the next six years".

Quote
Given that unobtanium can be magnetically suspended, it may have no net weight at all (someone who knows astrophysics will have to correct me on this).
Now I don't know astrophysics that well but I remember some discussions on the futility of magnetic accelerators in orbit for sending greetings down to the ground (the kind of greating that punches a hole through your newly kidnapped aircraft carrier).
Every action creates an equal reaction , physics 101. Weight wouldn't be of any concern in orbit since weight is just the result of mass and gravity and up there gravity is veeeery low.
So even if you are able to hang some Unobtanium on the outside of the ship like some giant fridge magnet -which is unlikely since I think I remember that the hull is in great parts made of non-metallic materials- you still need the energy to move the mass of the Unobtanium that suddenly clings to your ship. (Damn, think about being in charge of removing that container-sized-ultra-magnet from the ship!)

Quoteour evil humanitarian plans endeavors
And didn't I tell you not to tell anyone about our plans before I told you to tell them? Bad kitty!

:D Ha, four "tell" in one sentence and it doesn't sound (too) stupid!
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

"You don't dream in cryo" they say. Good! Imagine a 6-year-nightmare!

All Things Avatar: AIM for us on twitter!

Tsa'räni

As to the physics, what you're concerned about is mass, not weight.  Weight is a force and requires mass and gravity when dealing with this type of thing.  A rock that weighs 100 lbs on earth would weigh much less on the moon due to a less intense gravitational field.  That rock would have the same mass in both cases, though.

Therefore, when dealing with space travel, even though there may be no weight to an object, it still retains all its mass.  When you look at equations like linear momentum = mass*velocity and kinetic energy = 1/2*mass*velocity^2 it becomes clear that motion is still very much affected by mass even if there is no weight due to gravitational acceleration.

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tsa'räni on January 30, 2010, 02:26:54 AM
As to the physics, what you're concerned about is mass, not weight.  Weight is a force and requires mass and gravity when dealing with this type of thing.  A rock that weighs 100 lbs on earth would weigh much less on the moon due to a less intense gravitational field.  That rock would have the same mass in both cases, though.

Therefore, when dealing with space travel, even though there may be no weight to an object, it still retains all its mass.  When you look at equations like linear momentum = mass*velocity and kinetic energy = 1/2*mass*velocity^2 it becomes clear that motion is still very much affected by mass even if there is no weight due to gravitational acceleration.

brbrbrbrbrbrbdbdbrbdlblbdbdbd---b!

(that's the sound of my kitty-sized brain being pureed into scrambled eggs)

Man! I love (friendly) smart people! Cookie for you!!
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsa'räni

Sorry about the brain!   ;)

And yes, I really do not like those who talk down to others when dealing with a subject they know well.  It's so frustrating because invariably there is something the person being talked down to can do better than the snooty person.  People's brains are just wired differently, I think.  Some can excel with equations and others just find them truly difficult.  I can't learn a thing if I can only listen...I have to read it or write it down to retain it.  Others can listen to a 3 hour lecture, take no notes, and learn all the concepts with no trouble.  Fascinating subject, actually.

Sorry for rambling!

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tsa'räni on January 30, 2010, 03:09:42 AM
Sorry about the brain!   ;)

Sorry for rambling!

Actually, you should post more. You thoughts are cogent (ha! I used a big word! ;D ) and I am interested to tse'a (see) your take on things around here.
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

OK, here is my assesment of the situation

Hell's Gate is not destroyed but will be maintained by the science guys that were allowed to stay on Pandora. Though it is now operated against eventually invading humans. And it is heavily armed against air attacks!

If I were Jake I would have kept the remaining shuttle (and pressed or bribed the pilots to stay too) to have some means of orbital travel or have a way to attack any ship that goes into orbit around Pandora.

But if the RDA or any other earth force can return to Pandora is questionable. It seems there is a strong movement against the RDA (Survival Guide) and as Selfridge said the people back home on earth don't like it when innocent natives get massacred. And the return of the RDA expedition with their tails between their legs will definitely lead to an embarrassing investigation by the supervising earth authorities.

Further It may well be that this defeat will drive the RDA into bankruptcy. Keep in mind that transporting all that mining and refining equipment out to Pandora must have cost a fantastic amount of money that could have only be recovered over a long term operation. From what we have seen mining and refining unobtanium had basically just started. So they wouldn't even have started recovering the cost, let alone make a profit.
So after such a setback and the public opinion against them what do you think are the RDA stocks gonna do? They will be in free fall! So I would expect the RDA to go belly up in the aftermath of the events on Pandora.

And even if they can survive I doubt they have the funds to outfit a military expedition to recapture Pandora. Remember that the RDA is not allowed to have any weapons of mass destruction. They would have to face the same or even larger forces that defeated them in the first place with less equipment and personal.

Further keep in mind that half of their supply ships are still en route to Pandora that now have no place to dock or refuel. The fuel factory was a part Hell's Gates operation and is no longer accessible to the RDA. So those ships would need to find another place to refuel in the Alpha Centauri system, dump their load in space or on another of Polyphemus' moons and then return to earth.
To amass the largest possible force the RDA would need to wait 12+ years so that all ISV would have returned to earth. Hard to believe the investors hold out that long.

Further the Survival Guide states that the resistance on earth has a superluminal transmitter. It is save to assume that the matching counterpart was somehow smuggled to Pandora. Also there have been for sure resistance members among the crew of Hell's Gate - most likely among the scientists and lab technicians that remained on Pandora.
So even if the RDA can pull off a counterstrike - Pandora can be warned about 6 years ahead and be ready when they arrive in orbit.

So I think things look pretty bleak for the RDA
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

kintìomum

Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 30, 2010, 04:03:43 AM
OK, here is my assesment of the situation
And a good one! +1 for you.

Actually keeping Hell's Gate active would be a smart move.
First they need some place where the humans who stayed can walk around and breathe without exopacks.
Second it's the only installment on the moon that gives them some warning time before a set of shuttles drops in and unloads a full set of angry soldiers and AMPs to mop up the remains of some nasty explosive.
And the factory might prove useful. Not that I think the Na'vi would suddenly start to use mass produced arrowheads or fiber-composite bows. But after all there's a giant hole in the planet which needs to be refilled with all the slack the RDA excavated from it.

Keeping the shuttle... I really don't know. They might but what use would it be to them? The normal area a Na'vi taronyu (hunter) lives and works in is defined by the range of the ikran and a shuttle... It might be usefull to take messages across the planet (like a diplomatic vehicle) but they could as well give every tribe a transmitter that's built on sturdyness.
And the Valkyrie is huge. They can programm the robo-factory at Hell's Gate to spew out light aircraft like a Scorpion without that much arms and armor and these would be much better suited to take someone around than a big ship that needs to blast a large area free for take off and landing...

It's great that you mention the moral and -much more important- financial blow the RDA took. Sure, the Na'vi lost a lot of tsansiyu (warriors) and Hometree -which after all was only home to one tribe. NO! Put the clubs away, it's the truth!
Now, with that great lot of shareholders and the typical reaction of shareholders to anything that could threaten profit -SELL ALL!- it might as well be that the RDA has to liquidate some assets. And the most lucrative ones for that would be? The ISVs, right.Sign some papers, send a message to the ISV (either superluminal or "slow") and as soon as they arrive in orbit they're the problem property of someone else who's happy to have a means to get himself and his 199 best friends to Pandora. Until h after alle sees the refitting bills, I guess...

Now, the RDA might manage to keep -lets say- six ISVs under their control. Then even if the ICA cancels the deal allowing the RDA sole profit from above orbit and lots of people start asking the dockyards (yeah, they aren't RDA property, they are just controlled by offspring-corps) to build new ISVs the RDA would remain the main holder of interstellar transport capacity for several years.
And with the ICA cancelling the deal they'd be allowed to build up military forces (what we saw were just security) and arm them with big bang devices...

But after all: The RDA won't be able to take the hit without serious cuts and a long time to rearrange the corp structures.
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

"You don't dream in cryo" they say. Good! Imagine a 6-year-nightmare!

All Things Avatar: AIM for us on twitter!

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 30, 2010, 04:03:43 AM
(snip)
mmmmmmmmmcookie!

That pretty much sums up a lot of facts and adds a bit of speculative analysis. I can't help but think the ships en route are going to have to set up camp on a nearby moon and that will be a hard operation. I assume most in cryo will stay (blissfully) in cryo. As unhappy as the Terran-based execs are, no one will be more upset than the suckers on those first two ships who ended up signing up fr a failed mission, and now have to live--or die horribly--on an alien moon.

But what no one seems to mention is that the RDA is the "biggest" multinational blah blah blah, NOT THE ONLY ONE. What happens if their competitor (currently working Mars--just a hypothesis) finds out, through industrial espionage, just how FUBAR the whole Pandora thing is and sends a ship or two to scout out salvage operations?

If it is ONLY the RDA that Pandora has to deal with--that is "acceptable and predictable." What? They are going to send someone more "evil and heartless" to replace Selfridge? But what if the RDA has competition? What is some element of chaos is thrown into the mix? Remember--it wasn't guns that killed the true Americans. It was (invading) government-issued blankets loaded with smallpox. Pandora could easily become toxic soup--the RDA is blameless (no proof), and free* unobtanium.

*(no flea-bitten blue monkeys or animals to fight off)
2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

Quote from: kintìomum on January 30, 2010, 12:48:30 PM
Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 30, 2010, 04:03:43 AM
OK, here is my assesment of the situation
And a good one! +1 for you.
Thanks!

Quote from: kintìomum on January 30, 2010, 12:48:30 PM...
Keeping the shuttle... I really don't know. They might but what use would it be to them? The normal area a Na'vi taronyu (hunter) lives and works in is defined by the range of the ikran and a shuttle... It might be usefull to take messages across the planet (like a diplomatic vehicle) but they could as well give every tribe a transmitter that's built on sturdyness.
And the Valkyrie is huge. They can programm the robo-factory at Hell's Gate to spew out light aircraft like a Scorpion without that much arms and armor and these would be much better suited to take someone around than a big ship that needs to blast a large area free for take off and landing ...
Keeping the shuttle wouldn't be for the Na'vi - they truly have no use for it - but for the science guys that stayed behind. And it wouldn't be of much good use on Pandora itself.  But they could use the shuttle to map and explore Pandora from orbit without the need of trampling through the woods. Also the shuttle could be used to explore some of the other moons. The Survival Guide states (on page 14) that the fifth and sixth moons (one of those is Pandora) have atmospheres that indicate carbon based life. And even more contain large amounts of water. So something else might be out there. There are places worth going to!

Keeping the remaining shuttle/s would also have been a wise precaution against anything stupid the kicked off humans might plan to do - like a kamikaze attack on the Tree of Souls straight from orbit. Further it would prevent these humans to land and create a new bridge head on another moon before returning home.

Lastly, I doubt that any of the ISV carries a set of shuttles. They are huge and heavy and cost a fortune to haul back and forth between Earth and Pandora for no good reason. I rather think the shuttles were stationed permanently on Pandora.
So by keeping the shuttle/s any of the arriving ISV's would be at the mercy of the Pandorans.

This also concludes that a possible attack force would need to carry shuttles as well which would reduce their payload of mercenaries and heavy combat equipment severely.

Also keep in mind that the en-route ISVs carry supplies and personal - new Avatar/driver and scientists - that might be welcome and useful on Pandora, at least for the humans that stayed there. So a shuttle would be a way to send up a raiding party to claim what they need and if in the mood send up fuel for the ISV to return home.


Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on January 30, 2010, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 30, 2010, 04:03:43 AM
(snip)
mmmmmmmmmcookie!
Thanks!

Quote from: Kaltxì Palulukan! on January 30, 2010, 01:02:03 PM... T
But what no one seems to mention is that the RDA is the "biggest" multinational blah blah blah, NOT THE ONLY ONE. ...
In the Survival Guide (on page 147) is stated that the RDA "has monopoly rights to all products shipped, derived, or developed from Pandora or any other off-Earth location. These rights were granted to the RDA in perpetuety by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.
..."
So there are no competitors on Mars or elsewhere in space ...

Now after this disaster things may change. I'm not sure if the use of those daisy-cutters during the attack on the Tree of Souls qualifies as the use of "weapons of mass destruction". Following this definition "A weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is a weapon that can kill large numbers of humans and/or cause great damage to man-made structures (e.g. buildings), natural structures (e.g. mountains), or the biosphere in general."  I'd say yes!
So when they hear about the destruction of Hometree and the attack on the Tree of Souls the ICA may use any angle to yank the monopoly from the RDA. And there is no way short of killing anybody returning on board the Venture Star to keep those things a secret.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

pbhead

Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 30, 2010, 05:17:39 PM
Lastly, I doubt that any of the ISV carries a set of shuttles. They are huge and heavy and cost a fortune to haul back and forth between Earth and Pandora for no good reason. I rather think the shuttles were stationed permanently on Pandora.
So by keeping the shuttle/s any of the arriving ISV's would be at the mercy of the Pandorans.
This also concludes that a possible attack force would need to carry shuttles as well which would reduce their payload of mercenaries and heavy combat equipment severely.
Also keep in mind that the en-route ISVs carry supplies and personal - new Avatar/driver and scientists - that might be welcome and useful on Pandora, at least for the humans that stayed there. So a shuttle would be a way to send up a raiding party to claim what they need and if in the mood send up fuel for the ISV to return home.

Every Isv carriers 2 shuttles, and a litheography plant to pandora... the ISV does NOT hual the shuttles back to earth... the new shuttles replace the old ones, and the old ones are repurposed to harvest hydrogen from polymorph. (all that unloaded weight allows the ISV to carry... what was it... 350 tons of unobtanium back to earth.)  Also... the payload of mercenaries is limited by the number of cryochambers... not by weight.  Now, preety much everything on pandora was created on pandora,  except the electronics, and any complicated engine bits... so te next few ISV's will arive with with the parts to make quite a few choppers... but no access to the raw materials of pandora to make them. (however, what they could do... is set up the litheography plant on a different moon... mine some steel, so that the by the time the next isv has arrived, they will have a nice little army.)

Thats a good point.  Thepeople on hells gate would prolly continue to manufacture antimatter, so that when the next ISV's arrive, they can send them back to earth. (or, at least, thats what the science dudes on pandora think whats going to happen when the next isv arrives... but the corperate guy on the next isv will prolly have different plans than simply refueling and going home.)










Tsu'roen

#34
Quote from: pbhead on January 30, 2010, 05:40:07 PM
Every Isv carriers 2 shuttles, and a litheography plant to pandora...  
What is the source of this info?  I couldn't find that in that in the Survival Guide and don't remember reading it in the scripts either.

The hydrogen fuel for the ISV and the shuttles is produced on Pandora by a hydroelectric plant (concepts).


Polyphemus' gravity is way too high for the shuttles to regain escape speed after diving into it's atmosphere. So That's a rather unlikely source of hydrogen. Then other moons are more likely.

Also shipping a constant stream of shuttles to Pandora seems to be a little wasteful - I mean those are not cheap. And if there is a thing the RDA isn't it's being wastefully.

Also stereolithography can't produce everything. I've worked with such systems for metals and plastics an the surface quality is rather rough. So additional machining will be required in most cases to create precision parts.
More important for metals is the inner structure. The SL process creates metal structures that are more like cast material - rather brittle. To really get steel and most other metals really strong you need to draw, roll or forge them followed by an appropriate heat treatment.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 30, 2010, 05:17:39 PM

In the Survival Guide (on page 147) is stated that the RDA "has monopoly rights to all products shipped, derived, or developed from Pandora or any other off-Earth location. These rights were granted to the RDA in perpetuety by the Interplanetary Commerce Administration (ICA), with the stipulation that they abide by a treaty that prohibits weapons of mass destruction and limits military power in space.
..."
So there are no competitors on Mars or elsewhere in space ...

Right. However: Go back two pages. Start at the beginning. ". . .Corporations have been forced to look outward for profit--to space, to the moon, to Mars, and finally, to Pandora." Also look at the names of the manufacturers of the various weapons the RDA uses, and the slang term "the consortium," referring to the RDA (and friends?). I should have phrased that:

sub-contractors

(not competitors). I apologize. i know of no major corporation that does not outsource piece-meal work to any number of subs because subs can specialize (at their own risk) to develop proficiency in niche markets major corps simply cannot, or do not want to invest the expense in. I think it is possible for a sub-contractor (perhaps the manufacturer of RDA engines, or even the shuttle contractor--IF--the RDA contracts those out), or any other upstart to try a gambit. This is all wild speculation, but it does play into the RDA's "egg on face" embarrassment. But forget all that. let me pose a question that has been nagging at me for weeks now:

Leviathan.

We have the king of the skies. We have the tiger of the jungle. But Pandora has a LOT of water, and even more coastline (well, a lot more than Earth). "What if" a (new) ship, which is hermetically sealed for any atmosphere were outfitted to work "underwater" and THAT was their base of finding, harvesting, and exploiting unobtanium without those pesky savages interfering? this is more wild speculation, BUT we need a new giant monster superhero (most likely) and the oceans of Pandora have not been mentioned or explored--and life on Earth began in the ocean. Factoids:

Lobsters used to grow to gargantuan proportions compared to what they are now, before they were overfished to death. Giant squid reach 1,000 pounds (450 kg). Unicorn whales actually exist (although unicorn horsies are still thought to be a myth). What if Pandora--who is NOT overfished, and has had eons to grow fishies, has a giant cephalopod?

By the way, here is a picture of an octopus opening a container with a screw cap. Crazy, srak?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Oktopus_opening_a_container_with_screw_cap_01.jpg

So i am just wondering if the RDA will try to do a Captain Nemo thing and get screw(topp)ed by the oceans of Pandora.

2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

Tsu'roen

@ pbhead
Ok, just saw the movie (for the 6th time ;D) and the ISV had actually 2 shuttles docked before turning into orbit. So it looks like they really bring them all the way from Earth on every tour.

I still find it highly uneconomical to haul 2 new shuttles every time all the way to Pandora if it is possible to maintain and repair them on Pandora. And it should be possible! These are not the space shuttles we have now but far advanced ones. So I would imagine that the issues with the current shuttles are mostly solved. The parts with a somewhat limited lifetime are most likely the engines that might need to be replaced after so many trips. And maybe the heat shield needs an overhaul once in a while. But it is still cheaper just to ship the replacement engines and spare parts than two complete shuttles every time. And if the factory on Pandora is able to build the Scorpion and Dragon gunships as well as the Samson carrier and heavy mining equipment it should also be capable to build most of the required shuttle spare parts.
Also to consider is that fuel produced on Earth cost a lot more than fuel produced on Pandora due to the general energy shortage on Earth. This makes it even more uneconomic to haul unnecessary stuff to Pandora. 
So is this a big hole in James Cameron's logic?

@ Kaltxì Palulukan!
Yes, subcontractors are a way big companies like to hand of problems they are unwilling or have become incapable of handling themselves. Or they just buy companies that have innovative new products instead of developing new products themselves. In the long run they become huge bureaucracies that are increasingly inflexible. Over short or long they collapse or break apart under their overblown overhead.
The RDA has certainly reached a level where it is a state within the state

And the idea of going under water isn't bad. However a spaceship is not a submarine and will never be. The conditions for both applications are completely opposing each other. So for any mining on the ground of Pandora's oceans it is still necessary to have a landing strip close to the coast and a harbor where equipment and goods can be loaded from space shuttle to submarine and vice versa. 
But if the sea creatures of Pandora are anything like the ones on land and in the air then mining the sea ground might even more dangerous than it was on land.
I'd like to see what James Cameron and his designers would come up with.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

10x (1x 2D, 3x Real 3D, 6x IMAX 3D)
1x Special Ed. (1x IMAX 3D)

Kaltxì Palulukan!

Quote from: Tsu'roen on January 31, 2010, 07:50:45 AM
. . . I'd like to see what James Cameron and his designers would come up with.

Great post--and not just because you liked (some of) what i had to say. but now:

"I knew it! ------ I knew it! I knew it! I knew it!!"

(ahem . . .) From IMDB!  --->  The Abyss (1989) (written by)

Right after he did Aliens--did anyone else notice the many similarities between Aliens and Avatar?

I had this nagging suspicion that he was part of "The Abyss." It's underwater time! JC knows underwater. He loves underwater. I'll bet he even has a pet fish! Okay, so my thoughts are that we will have some kind of underwater motif replete with a giant squid from hell. It my be Av 2, or even Av 3, but my money is that he will go deep--maybe in search of magma. What if the molten core of Pandora, or a sister moon contained (insert expensive material here)?

Ookay, well whether that is at all a possibility, check out what JC is working on next:

Heavy Metal--does anyone remember Tarna? (The original Neytiri) Tarna was HOT! Tarna even made it to Southpark.
Terminator 5--"I'll be back"--look for RDA references! :)
Forbidden Planet--If anyone can make "Forbidden Planet" it is JC*
Fantastic Voyage--Once again*

* Is anyone noticing a theme here? JC has a fascination with the ocean (um . . . TITANIC!, The Abyss, Fantastic Voyage--while technically a story about people getting shrunk and entering the human body--in a submarine no less!--it deals with the whole voyage through liquid thing.

Also: Forbidden Planet (Pandora), Rambo 2 (Super soldier bonds with the jungle--with bow and arrow strangely enough!), Heavy metal (Neytiri, Ikran), T-5 (RDA--duh), Fantastic voyage "inner space" (anyone remember the quote from the ASG about the RDA and "inner space"? Anyone, anyone, Bueller? The man loves outer space, inner space, aliens and human interaction with alien (meaning strange and new) life, oceans, deep mysterious, unforgiving oceans. I think that humans will come to Pandora, and they will bring fishing tackle!

;D

Okay, and finally, just to really open this up for discussion:



2022 update: Working on the new astrology book. "How to read tarot" books are on Amazon, if you are into that sort of thing.
Okay, so the old podcast is here: https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/radioavatar It was goofy fun that ended too soon, but we had creative people. I hope we can get a new gang together (interested? PM me, let's make some magic!)
(Very old, outdated) Na'vi FUN activity book is here: But what are you doing? Let me know! :)

kintìomum

Well. In the ocean no one hear's you curse the damn engineer that thought foamed plastic was an ample replacement for steel plate...
A true space ship has one big advantage to a submarine: It just has to cope with one atmosphere of pressure. And that one is relativly small, on the inside and wants to get out into the wide yard to play hide and seek-till-you-suffocate...
Over all pressure: 1 atmosphere.

A submarine on the other hand has one atmosphere of pressure on the inside (ha, who thought that?) but can have several hundred on the outside.
For Pandora I think to remember (sniff, ASG is faaaar away) that the oceans are not as much on the land-to-water-ratio as on Earth and broken into smaller and not so deep portions. Anyway, on sea level we already have 1.1 atmospheres due to the denser atmosphere.
If we go down 12m it's another atmosphere of pressure thanks to the lower gravity of Pandora. But most things valuable are not found in the shallow waters you're able to harvest with some scuba gear.
(Scuba gear? I gotta be crazy! Have you seen the fish in the ASG? Looks like something Mr. S.Atan, CEO of torturedSouls, Inc. has in his aquarium!)
Now, even considering that the pandoran oceans are "not as deep" there'll still be... let's say a mere 1200m until you can find a larger pocket of Unobtanium at the ground.
That'd be (1200m / 12m per atmosphere) 100 atmospheres of pressure...
So, long talks (no)sense is: we have to cope with 101 atmospheres of pressure that want to come in to suffocate everyone who's not hiding, are in addition subject to something that might think we're just some funny kind of canned meat and it's so totally unfriendly for human life down there that mining another piece of jungle really seems like holiday.

I'd say: great idea, Kaltxì but since we're not talking StarWars or -trek but just plain hard corporate quarterly numbers (and some scapegoats, zealots, fanatics and  "I got the right to do that!"s there's no financial reason to start exploring anything that's deeper down than the bottom of the sink.
But I like the idea... Perhaps because it got such a nice lot of "supporting evidence"?
kintìomum : curiosity (lit.: need knowledge)

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Tsa'räni

I don't recall anything from the ASG about oceanic depths, but the land to water ratio is higher on Pandora, yes.  I'm sure it's reasonable to say they've got deep enough oceans.