Demons - what are they?

Started by Säfpìltu, April 04, 2011, 03:03:40 PM

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Swoka Swizaw

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on January 28, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
``Ad hocking´´  ???? ``Tsumongwi´´  ???? And what does that ``-vi´´ you're referring to mean  ????

I think you have the right to your own opinion but personally i find it far more likely that Na'vi is a fusion of na (``like, as´´), which would make the meaning of Na'vi very similar to Homo in Homo Sapiens (Homo is Latin and means ``like, as´´, just like na.), and that ``-vi´´-affix you're referring to (I really gotta start studying more Na'vi  :P.).

What do you guys think  ????

Studying would be good.

"Ad hoc" is a Latin phrase (of which I don't know the exact meaning) that I know to refer to the process of assigning a meaning to something AFTER the fact. Na'vi is a word which means something, but ad hocking it, I tried to give it more of a meaning, retroactively. As for "Tsumongwi," this, apparently, is the "original" name for the Na'vi people. I don't know, otherwise. And, finally, "-vi" is a suffix which indicates a small version of something. My translation might be a little flawed, needing "-ìva" to mean what I intended.

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Irayo for the explanation, ma Ìngkoruptusì  :)! There are some English words you used there that i'm a bit unfamiliar with but i'll look them up on my own  ;).
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Human No More

Quote from: Ìngkoruptusì on January 28, 2012, 07:14:15 PM
Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on January 28, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
``Ad hocking´´  ???? ``Tsumongwi´´  ???? And what does that ``-vi´´ you're referring to mean  ????

I think you have the right to your own opinion but personally i find it far more likely that Na'vi is a fusion of na (``like, as´´), which would make the meaning of Na'vi very similar to Homo in Homo Sapiens (Homo is Latin and means ``like, as´´, just like na.), and that ``-vi´´-affix you're referring to (I really gotta start studying more Na'vi  :P.).

What do you guys think  ????

Studying would be good.

"Ad hoc" is a Latin phrase (of which I don't know the exact meaning) that I know to refer to the process of assigning a meaning to something AFTER the fact. Na'vi is a word which means something, but ad hocking it, I tried to give it more of a meaning, retroactively. As for "Tsumongwi," this, apparently, is the "original" name for the Na'vi people. I don't know, otherwise. And, finally, "-vi" is a suffix which indicates a small version of something. My translation might be a little flawed, needing "-ìva" to mean what I intended.
That's ex post facto actually.

Ad hoc has two fairly different definitions - created for the specific purpose, and as it happens - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ad_hoc (it also lists special but I haven't really seen it in this context).
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

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Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

What is ``ex post facto´´ and what does it mean  ????

Anyway; Irayo for the link, ma tsmukan  :)! I think i understand what ad hoc means now  :D.
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Human No More

Ex post facto is what you defined in your previous post.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
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ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

ExLibrisMortis

ex post facto = "after the fact"

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Quote from: ExLibrisMortisex post facto = "after the fact"

Irayo for the translation, ma ELM  :)!

Quote from: Human No MoreEx post facto is what you defined in your previous post.

Do you mean this  ????:

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on January 28, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
I think you have the right to your own opinion but personally i find it far more likely that Na'vi is a fusion of na (``like, as´´), which would make the meaning of Na'vi very similar to Homo in Homo Sapiens (Homo is Latin and means ``like, as´´, just like na.), and that ``-vi´´-affix you're referring to (I really gotta start studying more Na'vi  :P.).
Set oe slolu Kxitx, hifkeyä ska'ayu

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I can't deny it: I'm a smiley addict ;D.

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Human No More

No. My mistake, it wasn't your post.

The post:
Quote from: Ìngkoruptusì on January 28, 2012, 07:14:15 PM
Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on January 28, 2012, 03:51:49 PM
``Ad hocking´´  ???? ``Tsumongwi´´  ???? And what does that ``-vi´´ you're referring to mean  ????

I think you have the right to your own opinion but personally i find it far more likely that Na'vi is a fusion of na (``like, as´´), which would make the meaning of Na'vi very similar to Homo in Homo Sapiens (Homo is Latin and means ``like, as´´, just like na.), and that ``-vi´´-affix you're referring to (I really gotta start studying more Na'vi  :P.).

What do you guys think  ????

Studying would be good.

"Ad hoc" is a Latin phrase (of which I don't know the exact meaning) that I know to refer to the process of assigning a meaning to something AFTER the fact. Na'vi is a word which means something, but ad hocking it, I tried to give it more of a meaning, retroactively. As for "Tsumongwi," this, apparently, is the "original" name for the Na'vi people. I don't know, otherwise. And, finally, "-vi" is a suffix which indicates a small version of something. My translation might be a little flawed, needing "-ìva" to mean what I intended.
...actually defines ex post facto, not ad hoc. Ad hoc in that context would mean assigning a meaning as you go along.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Ok, i'm a bit confused right now  :-\. Not that surprising considering i'm so tired  :P. Could you elaborate,  ????
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Human No More

This is about the third time D:

ex post facto means after the fact.
ad hoc means coming up with something (a meaning in this context) as you go along.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Quote from: Human No More on February 17, 2012, 08:40:05 PM
This is about the third time D:

ex post facto means after the fact.
ad hoc means coming up with something (a meaning in this context) as you go along.

Oh, i see. I thought you were talking about a completely different aspect of the matter  :P.

BTW: Don't you guys think we should return to the topic of demons  ???? You know, the topic this thread was actually created for  ??? :P?
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Riverborn

Greetings all - brand new member here.  I joined specifically to address this topic, which I've had a pet theory about for some time.  It goes back to the definition of demon as a "possessing spirit".  Based on the movie, in which a few major scenes involve attempts by Mo'at to permanently transfer consciousnesses from one body to another via the Tree of Souls, it seems the idea of soul transfer is something known to the Na'vi.  And, since it seems like it is possible to "upload" one's spirit into the network, it may also be possible for a spirit to "download" itself into anyone bonded to the network as well.  It may in fact be the case that malevolent, strong-willed spirits in the Pandoran network could forcible invade the body of another na'vi during tsaheylu, and this is the vrrtep

This idea would also be consistent with the Avatars being referred to as "demons in a false body"; given the way the Avatar program works, this would in fact be a pretty accurate description from the na'vi POV.

Seze Mune

I'm going to have to go back and reread this thread.  Meantime, I hope I'm not going over old territory by saying that 'demon' is our translation of 'vrrtep' because that's the only thing we have as a extant referent for it.

It could be that our translation is in error, and that vrrtep has a different cultural connotation than we can understand. 

As a weak example, do most of us really comprehend 'aean' the same way a Na'vi would?  I cannot.  Green and blue are distinctly different to me until we get into the teal shades, but even then I can 'see' a difference.

Ateyo Te Syaksyuk

#93
I would tend to agree with RiverBorn to a large extent.  Although, I might add, we know little of Eywa's spiritual influence.  In most religions, there is an opposing force, a devil, an anti good, anti God. etc.  That is not introduced anywhere except in that one statement by Tsu'tey.  In that statement, it is implied that a spirit (good or evil) has taken up residence where it is not welcomed. Implying also that "possession" is possible (WalkINS not welcome) ;D
An Avatar is not born from the body of a Na'vi woman. False body could be their (Na'vi) interpretation of the science magic, that produces them.  A process that would have been explained possibly, by Grace Augustine.  (She had established her school for ten years.) Avatars might seems like a Frankenstein monster;
animated yet not quite Na'vi, though disquietingly similar.
Naming such a person UnilTìrantokx - Dream Walker Body - is a very poetic description.  I had to see the movie a second time to confirm that these creatures were grown in test tubes, rather than being a reanimated corpse!  How must it have seemed to Tsu-tey?
Having said that, VRRRTEP could be a loose translation of demon, yet not be analogous to OUR concept of evil spirits.  (I just read Mary Shelley's original FRANKENSTEIN, which deals with these issues as well!)

Human No More

Quote from: Seze Mune on March 31, 2012, 09:41:55 AM
I'm going to have to go back and reread this thread.  Meantime, I hope I'm not going over old territory by saying that 'demon' is our translation of 'vrrtep' because that's the only thing we have as a extant referent for it.

It could be that our translation is in error, and that vrrtep has a different cultural connotation than we can understand. 

As a weak example, do most of us really comprehend 'aean' the same way a Na'vi would?  I cannot.  Green and blue are distinctly different to me until we get into the teal shades, but even then I can 'see' a difference.
Yep. See skxawng - so many people use that in a self-deprecating manner when it is far more of an insult than they might think, because an insistence on always giving a single-word translation does necessarily impair precision, including for languages spoken on Earth.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

#95
Quote from: RiverbornGreetings all - brand new member here.  I joined specifically to address this topic, which I've had a pet theory about for some time.  It goes back to the definition of demon as a "possessing spirit".  Based on the movie, in which a few major scenes involve attempts by Mo'at to permanently transfer consciousnesses from one body to another via the Tree of Souls, it seems the idea of soul transfer is something known to the Na'vi.  And, since it seems like it is possible to "upload" one's spirit into the network, it may also be possible for a spirit to "download" itself into anyone bonded to the network as well.  It may in fact be the case that malevolent, strong-willed spirits in the Pandoran network could forcible invade the body of another na'vi during tsaheylu, and this is the vrrtep.  

This idea would also be consistent with the Avatars being referred to as "demons in a false body"; given the way the Avatar program works, this would in fact be a pretty accurate description from the na'vi POV.

First of all, i'd like to welcome you to this forum, ma tsmukan  :). Secondly, i'd like to say that i find your theory very interesting  :). I've never thought about it in that way before.

Quote from: Ateyo Te Syaksyuk on March 31, 2012, 05:18:52 PM
I would tend to agree with RiverBorn to a large extent.  Although, I might add, we know little of Eywa's spiritual influence.  In most religions, there is an opposing force, a devil, an anti good, anti God. etc.  That is not introduced anywhere except in that one statement by Tsu'tey.  In that statement, it is implied that a spirit (good or evil) has taken up residence where it is not welcomed. Implying also that "possession" is possible (WalkINS not welcome) ;D
An Avatar is not born from the body of a Na'vi woman. False body could be their (Na'vi) interpretation of the science magic, that produces them.  A process that would have been explained possibly, by Grace Augustine.  (She had established her school for ten years.) Avatars might seems like a Frankenstein monster;
animated yet not quite Na'vi, though disquietingly similar.
Naming such a person UnilTìrantokx - Dream Walker Body - is a very poetic description.  I had to see the movie a second time to confirm that these creatures were grown in test tubes, rather than being a reanimated corpse!  How must it have seemed to Tsu-tey?
Having said that, VRRRTEP could be a loose translation of demon, yet not be analogous to OUR concept of evil spirits.  (I just read Mary Shelley's original FRANKENSTEIN, which deals with these issues as well!)

Yeah, even animistic religions such as the Na'vi's tend to include some kind of evil forces in it.

You thought the avatars were reanimated corpses  ???  ;D?! Sorry if it sounds like i'm mocking you, but lol  ;D!

Quote from: Seze MuneI'm going to have to go back and reread this thread.  Meantime, I hope I'm not going over old territory by saying that 'demon' is our translation of 'vrrtep' because that's the only thing we have as a extant referent for it.

It could be that our translation is in error, and that vrrtep has a different cultural connotation than we can understand.  

As a weak example, do most of us really comprehend 'aean' the same way a Na'vi would?  I cannot.  Green and blue are distinctly different to me until we get into the teal shades, but even then I can 'see' a difference.

Hate to tell you, ma Seze Mune, but you are going over old territory  :-\. Still, i guess it doesn't hurt to say it again  :).

Quote from: Human No MoreYep. See skxawng - so many people use that in a self-deprecating manner when it is far more of an insult than they might think, because an insistence on always giving a single-word translation does necessarily impair precision, including for languages spoken on Earth.

Since culture plays such a big part in the development of language, there'll almost always be words whose meaning can't be translated into a single word in another language, or even translated at all.
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Human No More

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on April 12, 2012, 03:40:41 PM
Since culture plays such a big part in the development of language, there'll almost be words whose meaning can't be translated into a single word in another language, or even translated at all.
Isn't that what I just said? ;)

I agree though.

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on April 12, 2012, 03:40:41 PM
Yeah, even animistic religions such as the Na'vi's tend to include some kind of evil forces in it.
Not really, while I'd say it's a huge stretch to classify anything to do with the Na'vi as such anyway.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
1 | 2 (finished) | 3
ToS: Human No More
dA
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"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Quote from: Human No More on April 13, 2012, 08:14:15 PM
Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on April 12, 2012, 03:40:41 PM
Since culture plays such a big part in the development of language, there'll almost always be words whose meaning can't be translated into a single word in another language, or even translated at all.
Isn't that what I just said? ;)

I agree though.

Quote from: Teylar Ta Palulukankelku on April 12, 2012, 03:40:41 PM
Yeah, even animistic religions such as the Na'vi's tend to include some kind of evil forces in it.
Not really, while I'd say it's a huge stretch to classify anything to do with the Na'vi as such anyway.

Maybe it is but, well... I added the aspect of culture to the argument  ::)  :P.

What do you mean by that last part  ????
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Human No More

I mean that, well, animalistic is a vague term (humans are very animalistic too, in certain ways :P), while religion itself is generally defined as thinking there's something supernatural; which doesn't really apply there.
"I can barely remember my old life. I don't know who I am any more."

HNM, not 'Human' :)

Na'vi tattoo:
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ToS: Human No More
dA
Personal site coming soon(ish

"God was invented to explain mystery. God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand."
- Richard P. Feynman

Teylar Ta Palulukankelku

Quote from: Human No More on April 22, 2012, 04:52:17 PM
I mean that, well, animalistic is a vague term (humans are very animalistic too, in certain ways :P), while religion itself is generally defined as thinking there's something supernatural; which doesn't really apply there.

FYI, i mean ``animistic´´, not ``animalistic´´. I guess you thought that because i'm Swedish (and thus do not have English as my mother-tongue) i spelled the word ``animalistic´´ wrong, but i really mean ``animistic´´. Sorry for the misunderstanding  :-\.
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