Demons - what are they?

[Säfpìltu]

So, Na'vi has a word for demon. But what is a vrrtep, really? Is it a word mostly used to describe dangerous animals, like toruk or palulukan, or is it more to describe people as evil? Or do na'vi believe in "evil spirits" of sorts, similar to demon types in various human belief systems?

What are ayvrrtep?

[eejmensenikbenhet]

I think a vrrtep is someone or something with an evil mind/a bad soul. In short: frasawtute

_{ayvrrtep is just plural demons}

[Säfpìltu]

_{ayvrrtep is just plural demons}

I know that. I just wander what they are. What is the actual foundation for the existence of the word?

[Kamean]

Maybe Avatar II take answer. Most likely this is something with which fought 5 previous Toruk Makto.

[Alyara Arati]

Very interesting question!  And one to which I gave a lot of thought for my story Vur Vrrtepä (posted in nìNa'vi nì'aw).  My demon was essentially an accumulation of negative and destructive energy generated by evil.  I don't find this entirely implausible, and I think the Na'vi might also believe in bad places or beings that have become "strong with the dark side of the Force".

For the purposes of my story, I endowed my vrrtep with the capacity for thought, feeling, and independent movement.  However, I doubt that if such things actually exist, they would possess any of these abilities.  Unless, of course, the malevolent energy was actively being produced by a person (Na'vi or ketuwong) with a thoroughly rotten soul.  Also, see this discussion, if you haven't already.

[Vawm tsamsiyu]

I think they probably thought of demons the way we do/did, if something bad heppens that can't be explained they blame demons or evil spirits. Kind of like thus show I saw where some nearby volcanic activity or something was creating carbon monoxide that sank into grassy holes, so if you went in one you would suffocate and die and they called them evil grass or something
So the na'vi might have blamed that on demons or evil spirits but when the humans showed up and started killing them and destroying things we got labeled as demons

[Sireayä mokri]

beings that have become "strong with the dark side of the Force".

Here's the answer: a demon is a Na'vi Sith

[Human No More]

Something unnatural. The Na'vi don't have human concepts like mythology, it's just a case of there not being an exact word that fits, a bit like skxawng.

[Txur’Itan]

tep seems to be a contraction for fire or the word "txep"

vrr particle in its two dictionary existences (vrrìn, vrrtep) appears to be an antithesis of prr, of which is a particle used for pleasurable things (nìprrte', prrte',  prrnen, prrwll, prrnesyu).

It might be that vrrtep is applied as the feeling you had when you were burned by fire, or injured by a hunt or an enemy.  Frustration, annoyance, even anger inspired words have an inferred pejorative or negative feeling behind it that is understood but not necessarily interwoven in its definition when speaking about the word and how it is used.

It could be a cursing word that is used infrequently but seemed appropriate to describe the sky-people after they murdered a school full of children.

[Kamean]

tep seems to be a contraction for fire or the word "txep"

vrr particle in its two dictionary existences (vrrìn, vrrtep) appears to be an antithesis of prr, of which is a particle used for pleasurable things (nìprrte', prrte',  prrnen, prrwll, prrnesyu).

It might be that vrrtep is applied as the feeling you had when you were burned by fire, or injured by a hunt or an enemy.  Frustration, annoyance, even anger inspired words have an inferred pejorative or negative feeling behind it that is understood but not necessarily interwoven in its definition when speaking about the word and how it is used.

It could be a cursing word that is used infrequently but seemed appropriate to describe the sky-people after they murdered a school full of children.

Balrog

[Seseni]

Something unnatural. The Na'vi don't have human concepts like mythology, it's just a case of there not being an exact word that fits, a bit like skxawng.

I agree with this point, as it seems they never refer to any of their animals as a vrrtep, even the fearsome Palulukan. I think that a "demon" to them is anything that does not fit with the will of Ewya or the balance of all life, something that they would view as unnatural.

[Lolet]

Something unnatural. The Na'vi don't have human concepts like mythology, it's just a case of there not being an exact word that fits, a bit like skxawng.

I agree with this point, as it seems they never refer to any of their animals as a vrrtep, even the fearsome Palulukan. I think that a "demon" to them is anything that does not fit with the will of Ewya or the balance of all life, something that they would view as unnatural.

Unless, of course, they're dualists and an evil being balances things out with Eywa. But that probably would have been stated in the movie.

[Säfpìltu]

[...] I think that a "demon" to them is anything that does not fit with the will of Ewya or the balance of all life, something that they would view as unnatural.

This might be the most satisfying theory I've heard yet. The "unnatural" and "against the will of Eywa"; perhaps to a stronger degree than just some wreckless skxawng. Some things may be so unnatural that they deserve a word of their own "vrrtep", which suits the humans because of their actions. And the closest English equivalent to this word would have to be "demon"...

tep seems to be a contraction for fire or the word "txep"

vrr particle in its two dictionary existences (vrrìn, vrrtep) appears to be an antithesis of prr, of which is a particle used for pleasurable things (nìprrte', prrte',  prrnen, prrwll, prrnesyu).

It might be that vrrtep is applied as the feeling you had when you were burned by fire, or injured by a hunt or an enemy.  Frustration, annoyance, even anger inspired words have an inferred pejorative or negative feeling behind it that is understood but not necessarily interwoven in its definition when speaking about the word and how it is used.

It could be a cursing word that is used infrequently but seemed appropriate to describe the sky-people after they murdered a school full of children.

I'm amazed at the level of linguistic insight I come across on these boards. Looking at how other words are made up makes a lot of sense, of course; I just hadn't thought of it before. And with the feline like attributes of the na'vi, I love how these positively loaded words are marked with purring sounds "prr", while the "vrr" comes across as a mix between a hiss and a growl.

[Vawm tsamsiyu]

Something unnatural. The Na'vi don't have human concepts like mythology, it's just a case of there not being an exact word that fits, a bit like skxawng.

I agree with this point, as it seems they never refer to any of their animals as a vrrtep, even the fearsome Palulukan. I think that a "demon" to them is anything that does not fit with the will of Ewya or the balance of all life, something that they would view as unnatural.

They probably had some kind of mythology with malevolent entitys like that but never any real proof, but when'd the rda started their killing and destroying they became the real version.

[Säfpìltu]

They probably had some kind of mythology with malevolent entitys like that but never any real proof, but when'd the rda started their killing and destroying they became the real version.

Actually, I don't find that too likely. With such a "real deity" as Eywa is; so tangible and possible to communicate with, I'd think that all things that are in balance with Her are good or at least okay, while concepts that work against the balance of life ("our great mother Eywa does not take sides, Jake, only protects the balance of life") and one who enacts such concepts is considered vrrtep...

[Human No More]

Exactly - one who acts against the balance, since the balance is a natural consequence of the evolutionary process of life on Pandora. The concept doesn't exist in English (and probably not any other Earth language, at least not ones actively spoken by large developed populations anyway), so it's a case of a word that gives humans a degree of understanding of the intention of its meaning.

[Vawm tsamsiyu]

That sounds more like a parasite or pestilence (like locust swarms) and not a malevolent semi magical entity thats out to get you

[Säfpìltu]

That sounds more like a parasite or pestilence (like locust swarms) and not a malevolent semi magical entity thats out to get you

Well, parasites and pestilences are also a part of the balance of life. "Demon" would still, in my opinion, be the most decent translation of vrrtep, if ayvrrtep are what I've come to believe they are. Besides, the human individual(s) that first managed to translate Na'vi into English may of course have influenced the translations with their own understanding and perception of such concepts that you can't find exact equivalents to on Earth...

[Seseni]

That sounds more like a parasite or pestilence (like locust swarms) and not a malevolent semi magical entity thats out to get you

Well, I never meant they were semi-magical entity out to get you. In the movie, we only ever see sawtute called vrrtep, such as Neytiri saying "Fayvrrtep" (these demons) when she puts out the fire. Of course we can't know if the Na'vi had called other things vrrtep before the sawtute, but humans are the most demonic thing on Pandora, as they do nothing but destroy. They only use it when referring to a physical, real threat.

[Teylar Ta Palulukankelku]

Kaltxì, ma frapo  . I too have thought about this ocassionaly.

Since it seems, as some of you have already pointed out, that the Na'vi don't believe in evil creatures occuring naturally on Pandora, since that would work against the balance of life, one can only wonder why such a word would exist in Na'vi. There's, of course, the possibility that the word didn't exist in Na'vi prior to the arrival of the sawtute, like with the Na'vi word for ``lie´´. There's also the possibility that the first humans to learn Na'vi reformulated the word to a word of similar meaning that existed in English. What we'd really need is a Na'vi who, instead of simply translating the word directly from Na'vi to English, could explain to us, in English or in Na'vi, what the word means, because i'm pretty sure that the word ``vrrtep´´ doesn't have the exact same meaning as ``demon´´.

IMO, ``vrrtep´´ is a metaphor, like we humans say that we're ``haunted by our demons´´. A vrrtep is a negative emotion that causes destruction, pain and sorrow. In that case greed, anger, hatred and corruption are ayvrrtep.

Remember, this is just my interpritation. You're free to say your thoughts about this  .