Differences between Avatar bodies and Na'vi

[Txantslusam Skxawng]

What they said (you both get cookies). Let me add this example. Story canon is:

The Harry Potter books are "Harry Potter canon." Whatever JKR wrote is gospel. Voldemort is dead. Dead, dead, dead. (Sorry to spoil it if you missed the global meltdown that was all things HP.) The HP movies are considered canon (official) but not "gospel," as Warner Brothers has screwed up a LOT of HP canon. harry was always the kid with hair that was goofy and messed up and unruly--not "straight and always perfect, like that punk Daniel Radcliffe (wow, catty much? Me?   )

Fans (like me) can get VERY protective of their stories. I wanted HP to have screwed up hair. I wanted "uncle Dursely" to be a big mean ogre (which he was in the movies, so "that follows canon." See? ) FAN-FICTION can be whatever it wants, but when it strays too far from "gospel" it becomes a different story.

So, Avatar: Avatar the movie is "canon." Because there is no novel it is based off of, it is the purest incarnation of JC's vision. If and when JC writes the novel, THAT will take precedence over the movie, as novels usually do. Movies have to make budget cuts that novels rarely have to. The ASG is quasi-canon. It is "official," but has things that have been changed, and occasional mistakes we can chalk up to "being in character" or simply "done by idiots," depending on whether you like or hate the ASG. The ASG gives a TON of background information that was left out of the movie, therefore it is "canon" and considered holy--except when it disagrees with the movie. That is when we all get to fight over who is boss. For the most part, the eventual pecking order will probably be:

ABSOLUTE GOSPEL (according to J.C.)
^
|   The novel--but only if James Cameron writes it.
|   Avatar
|   Avatar sequels
|   The ASG
|   Novels written under contract by famous authors
|   T.V. show spin-offs (StarAvatargate)
|   Comic books and graphic novels--and any video games
|   Coffee Table Picture books (art and such)
|   Fan fiction, fan art, retail costumes, convention merchandise
V
Guesswork, trivia, and nonsense

Uhhmm.... Can u explain this to me if I were 6 years old, or is this correct : so a canon movie is a movie that is not based on a book? Or am I wrong

Moderator's note: REPLIED VIA P.M. Let's move on.

[Tsa'räni]

Anyway, I'm interested in feedback on the smell thing.  Let me try to clarify a little.

I'm not saying one or the other is correct, only that either is possible at this point.  I haven't seen anything that mentions avatar scent other than Eytukan's line in the movie.  So unless there is something else out there, that's all we have to go on.

That being the case, Eytukan's line seems to be ambiguous.  It could easily mean the avatar naturally carries an alien smell.  But it could also be referring to whatever smells come with Jake's human clothing and the time spent in the human environment.  A dip in a river and trip through the forest isn't going to remove all that lingering scent.

Not spreading misinformation seems to be a big thing around here.  I'm only pointing out that if we really only have the movie reference to smell to go by, I don't think there is enough to rule out either possibility.

[Tsa'räni]

Uhhmm.... Can u explain this to me if I were 6 years old, or is this correct : so a canon movie is a movie that is not based on a book? Or am I wrong

Avatar (the movie) is the original canon for its universe.  It stands king in terms of canon because it was first (there is no book version of Avatar yet).  If a book had come out first, that would be the main canon, with the movie second.

The book version of the movie shouldn't overwrite (what people call retcon) anything the movie has in it.  I'm sure it will only add more detail.  So in that way, I don't agree that an Avatar book will replace the movie as main canon.  The book and movie will go hand in hand, as they should.

Hopefully that answered your question.

Edit - Also, I don't agree that the book must be written by Cameron to make it important canon.  Another author could do it with his blessing, and his overview of the information, and it would still be just fine.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Anyway, I'm interested in feedback on the smell thing.  Let me try to clarify a little.

I'm not saying one or the other is correct, only that either is possible at this point.  I haven't seen anything that mentions avatar scent other than Eytukan's line in the movie.  So unless there is something else out there, that's all we have to go on.

That being the case, Eytukan's line seems to be ambiguous.  It could easily mean the avatar naturally carries an alien smell.  But it could also be referring to whatever smells come with Jake's human clothing and the time spent in the human environment.  A dip in a river and trip through the forest isn't going to remove all that lingering scent.

Not spreading misinformation seems to be a big thing around here.  I'm only pointing out that if we really only have the movie reference to smell to go by, I don't think there is enough to rule out either possibility.

Grrr... The movie repeatedly states that Avatar DNA is a synthetic blend of Human and Na'vi. Please watch the movie again. The movie *is* the rule. This is not spreading misinformation, and I am not sure I am liking your tone.

[Tsa'räni]

A synthetic blend of human and Na'vi DNA does not ensure an avatar's scent will be different.  Avatars have the same type of skin and markings as Na'vi, and plenty of other similarities.  There still remains no definite statement that they smell different.

Edit - What tone don't you like, btw?  There is no tone here from except to lay out the problem of stating that avatars definitely have a certain smell that differs from Na'vi.

[magne]

Anyway, I'm interested in feedback on the smell thing.  Let me try to clarify a little.

I'm not saying one or the other is correct, only that either is possible at this point.  I haven't seen anything that mentions avatar scent other than Eytukan's line in the movie.  So unless there is something else out there, that's all we have to go on.

That being the case, Eytukan's line seems to be ambiguous.  It could easily mean the avatar naturally carries an alien smell.  But it could also be referring to whatever smells come with Jake's human clothing and the time spent in the human environment.  A dip in a river and trip through the forest isn't going to remove all that lingering scent.

Not spreading misinformation seems to be a big thing around here.  I'm only pointing out that if we really only have the movie reference to smell to go by, I don't think there is enough to rule out either possibility.

Might also that the food the avatars are eating are different food.
How good is the sense of smell of Na'vi anyway? I guess it's better than humans because the nose design would give larger cavity.   

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

While there is no definite line in the movie that says it's the Avatar's themselves that have a different smell, I believe it's safe to say that they would smell different than a Native Na'vi, at least subtly. They probably wouldn't smell human either, but somewhere in between. I'm also assuming that they have a more heightened sense of smell than humans judging by their larger nose and because we see Neytiri sniffing the air a bit when hunting.

[Tsa'räni]

I don't agree with the "it's safe to say" part, but that's fine.  I'll gladly drop it, as I don't really care either way and obviously it's ruffling feathers for some reason.

[Elektrolurch]

Good idea. I think it's true... why else would they have such a nose? As airbag, when the ikran hits it with it's head? (Remember the scene Jake is taming his ikran )

I love the sniffing scenes.

[kintìomum]

Saw it again yesterday -and man is there a lot of detail you keep picking up every other time you see- and in the scene where Jake is learning to ride Pa'le we see Tsu'tey come along and try to shoo Jake away. When he adresses Jake he crinkles his nose. This might be for two reasons:
1) He's just disgusted to see that Jake didn't fall to death during the night.
2) He still get's an "alien smell" from Jake.
If the second is true it can't be because of the clothes. Jake's wearing Na'vi-made clothing at this time and I guess they burned his AVTR-project-clothing, or what was left of it.
Now we don't really know what the Avatars get to eat while they're at Hell's Gate but I guess it's safe to say that they won't get anything specially produced for them. After all Avatars were engineered to be able to live of the land without need for further supplies.
If they are eating "native" food there must be something else that makes their bodies smell differently. Perhaps some little change in the soil that marks the fruits grown for the Avatars as "not Eywa standard" since they seem to be growing in something like a plantation and these tend to exhaust the soil rather quickly if I remember my Geology/Ecology finals right.
Or it really is another little flaw that the human scientists created when they spliced the necessary human genome into the Na'vi genetics.
It might very well be that there's not only the eyebrows and additional digit that got changed by the insertion of human genome but also some small alteration in the sweat glands that causes the Avatar body to smell a little different.
A human would never notice the difference since he's got no way to smell a Na'vi (toxic levels of CO² in the atmosphere, remember?) and all the scientist might get to stick his nose to is an Avatar.
But for a Na'vi it might stand out like a funeral pyre at a garden fair. The Na'vi are after all much more in tune with their environment than we techno-weakened humans and I bet that their senses work at a better level. For me the bit of mud Neytiri tasted during the hunt would have been just that: mud. Wet earth. I bet I wouldn't taste if it was mud from the track of a talioang or nantang...

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Well, if there is a scent difference, I don't think it would be that big of one, or else Neytiri would have some difficulties cuddling up to Jake. I imagine that there is just a subtly differences, small, but certainly enough for the Na'vi to notice a bit.

Smell affects humans quite deeply on a subconscious level, one we rarely even notice. Ever find yourself going on a date and not liking the person for no apparent reason? They're cute, personality is good, likes the same things you do? But there is just no...spark? That spark has a lot to do with scent. You most likely have similar immune systems and through pheromones your body is subtly telling you that your children wouldn't have the good mix they need. Crazy, huh.

Every person has subtly different scents. I bet it's the same with the Na'vi. With the mixing of human and Na'vi DNA you'd get a mix of human and Na'vi pheromones. The Na'vi may experience an bumped up version of the bad date scenario when around an Avatar. Though clearly it's a small enough difference that they can get over it. 

[kintìomum]

Hmm, I knew about the subtle influence of our immune systems checking each other but I didn't think of it being of relevance to an Avatar-Na'vi-relationship...
Now that you mention it:
Perhaps the scent difference is based on the difference in the immune system? After all the Avatars are "set up" on Earth in a -likely- clean environment but nonetheless it's completely different to the (eco)system of Pandora.
That might have an influence on the immune complex an Avatar starts it's life with compared to the complex a Na'vi'eveng gets. The Na'vi one might be adapted to pathogens and germs currently active in the ecosystem while the Avatar starts with a random pick since the immune system had no informations on what is needed?

[Txantslusam Skxawng]

About the smell thing , ( sorry i forgot the name of Neytiri's father ) Could he just said that to make him look bad , cuz the other Na'vi were also laughing and not like covered their ( cat-like ) nose.  And about Neytiri , for me she seems the only beautifull Na'vi of the Omaticaya , like when they first got to Hometree ( when Jake was called a 'demon' ) i started focussing ( dont get me wrong ) on the female Na'vi's  , they didnt looked as beautifull( for me then ) as Neytiri , their was much greyer then Neytiri's skin colour , only the female Na'vi warriors had about the same skin colour as Neytiri.  And another thing , its weird that Na'vi die of old-age?( or is that wrong ) But Mo'at could run just fine when Hometree came down

[kintìomum]

I think that Na'vi can die of old age. It's a thing necessary for life to develop and the burial scene shows a Na'vi that looks pretty much as if he was able to reach a high age.
I tend to believe that a world as dangerous as Pandora leaves little room for dying of age but it might happen...

[Tsa'räni]

ASG says the Na'vi have a lifespan similar to that of a human, so yeah, they can die of old age.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Yeah, we saw a number of elderly (older than Mo'at) sitting around at the Tree of Souls near the end of the film. I don't believe Mo'at is that old, probably just middle age, hence why she can still run around.

[Tsu'roen]

Well, if there is a scent difference, I don't think it would be that big of one, or else Neytiri would have some difficulties cuddling up to Jake. I imagine that there is just a subtly differences, small, but certainly enough for the Na'vi to notice a bit.

Smell affects humans quite deeply on a subconscious level, one we rarely even notice. Ever find yourself going on a date and not liking the person for no apparent reason? They're cute, personality is good, likes the same things you do? But there is just no...spark? That spark has a lot to do with scent. You most likely have similar immune systems and through pheromones your body is subtly telling you that your children wouldn't have the good mix they need. Crazy, huh.

Every person has subtly different scents. I bet it's the same with the Na'vi. With the mixing of human and Na'vi DNA you'd get a mix of human and Na'vi pheromones. The Na'vi may experience an bumped up version of the bad date scenario when around an Avatar. Though clearly it's a small enough difference that they can get over it.  

Scents among humans are indeed extremely important - a person of the other sex you can't stand smelling you shouldn't have children with. The smell you can't stand tells you that your DNA may be incompatible with that person and that any possible offspring may have birth defects. Nature has done much more engineering on us than we give her credit for.
Now if this applies to Na'vi too is something only JC knows at this point.

As for Mo'at's age - the script (p. 46) has given her age as "in her 50's"  and I doubt this is a fact that has been changed.

Another difference between Na'vi and Avatar I noticed: the location where the queue originates on the skull is very different. The queue of a Na'vi leaves the skull in the upper half while the queue of an Avatar is located to the lower portion of the skull.
I made a quick sketch that illustrates this.



Aso a picture of Neytiri and one of Jake that show this very clearly

[MaTe]

the scent part should be easy to explain. Jake was freshly out of amino tank(medical scent). Spent some time in/near human structures and helicopter(human scent, machinery scent - a properly maintained gun will be oily), weared human-made clothes(different fabric, most likely washed with detergent). 1 short dive into the river can't get rid of all that.

[Txantslusam Skxawng]

the scent part should be easy to explain. Jake was freshly out of amino tank(medical scent). Spent some time in/near human structures and helicopter(human scent, machinery scent - a properly maintained gun will be oily), weared human-made clothes(different fabric, most likely washed with detergent). 1 short dive into the river can't get rid of all that.

Thats possible , he also had an Palulukan screaming ( im dutch , forgot the right word ) so the breath of the Palulukan could maybe also be the smell ?

[Txantslusam Skxawng]

Well, if there is a scent difference, I don't think it would be that big of one, or else Neytiri would have some difficulties cuddling up to Jake. I imagine that there is just a subtly differences, small, but certainly enough for the Na'vi to notice a bit.

Smell affects humans quite deeply on a subconscious level, one we rarely even notice. Ever find yourself going on a date and not liking the person for no apparent reason? They're cute, personality is good, likes the same things you do? But there is just no...spark? That spark has a lot to do with scent. You most likely have similar immune systems and through pheromones your body is subtly telling you that your children wouldn't have the good mix they need. Crazy, huh.

Every person has subtly different scents. I bet it's the same with the Na'vi. With the mixing of human and Na'vi DNA you'd get a mix of human and Na'vi pheromones. The Na'vi may experience an bumped up version of the bad date scenario when around an Avatar. Though clearly it's a small enough difference that they can get over it.  

Scents among humans are indeed extremely important - a person of the other sex you can't stand smelling you shouldn't have children with. The smell you can't stand tells you that your DNA may be incompatible with that person and that any possible offspring may have birth defects. Nature has done much more engineering on us than we give her credit for.
Now if this applies to Na'vi too is something only JC knows at this point.

As for Mo'at's age - the script (p. 46) has given her age as "in her 50's"  and I doubt this is a fact that has been changed.

Another difference between Na'vi and Avatar I noticed: the location where the queue originates on the skull is very different. The queue of a Na'vi leaves the skull in the upper half while the queue of an Avatar is located to the lower portion of the skull.
I made a quick sketch that illustrates this.



Aso a picture of Neytiri and one of Jake that show this very clearly

I cant find a good picture of a male Na'vi , cuz maybe they have it the same?..