Different Na'vi languages? Tsaheylu?

[judytuna]

Something I was talking about with O.F. last night, and something I've said before in the middle of an ATA recording session: think of how many MANY languages we have on Earth, as one race of homo sapiens... why shouldn't Na'vi all over Pandora speak hundreds and thousands of different languages, too?

Unless... they're different because they have tsaheylu. They can all plug in directly to Eywa, the vast internet, and HEAR the first songs. And language change wouldn't happen (or it would be less likely), because you can listen to the First Songs all the time (not all of us native English speakers can pick up Beowulf and be able to read it, but I bet all Na'vi all over the world can plug their USB keys into trees and hear the songs, especially if Jake in an avatar body could open up his eyes in surprise and say "I hear them!").

Maybe there would be some language shift, but everybody would still be able to understand the old/ceremonial language of the first songs, and speak in whatever conversational na'vi has evolved into. I'm only talking about some hypothetical other group of Na'vi.

Then there's tsaheylu. What if I imported a pa'li from the other side of the world (what if there weren't even pa'lis on the other side of the world?!?!?!??!?! and it was some other beast of burden???), where the people don't speak my brand of Na'vi... could I plug into the horse and control it? We think yes, because there's evidence for tsaheylu not being based on linguistics:
1) the horse could basically tell the gist of what jake was saying (go forward! woah! *falls off*), before jake could speak a word of na'vi
2) the ikran responded to jake saying "shut up and fly straight" in ENGLISH, from which we can infer that it's the thought that counts

If we therefore believe that tsaheylu is non-linguistic, you get into magical babelfish stuff. What if my muntxatu spoke a different language natively from me, or was at least just from another culture or something? (You know, like frickin' Jake and Neytiri? HRH.) I care deeply about this because there are lots of things I feel like I almost can't explain because I was born a native Chinese speaker, and I spend a lot of breath lip-wind explaining why things are funny (example: I was JUST notified, at twenty-eight years of age, that one of the words in "triangle" (which sounds to me like "san1 jiao3 shing2") means "corner". I thought all my life that it meant "foot" because the words for "foot" and "corner" are homophones (jiao3), and as a little kid I knew the word for "foot" but I never learned the word for "corner". So I thought a triangle was a "three-footed shape" and that women's underwear was a "three-footed pants" which NEVER made sense to me, but now I see: of COURSE lady panties have 3 corners and are shaped like a triangle. DUHHH). Imagine if I could just plug into another human being and they would be able to understand my thoughts AND my language AND how my thoughts inform and are informed by my native language(s) AND all I had to do was plug into them and they would understand why I was trying so hard between tears of laughter to tell them about underwear.

What a fantasy.

I also wonder what pa'lis and ikrans are telling us (wishful thinking) Na'vis. "Hey man, I'm scared cuz I smelled a toruk!!!" "Hey man, I'm kinda thirsty." "Hey man, I'm getting kinda tired, we've been flying all day." "Hey man! I haven't seen you in like a whole day! I missed you! How have you been? I just made a really delicious snack of one of those innocent wide-eyed lemur thingies. It was SOOOO tasty! A little crunchy: JUST how I like them!! What did YOU have for lunch??" More fantasies.

I've never had a pet (2 goldfish don't count) but I observe my friends greeting their dogs, and their dogs are definitely telling them things.

Anyway, back to the whole "what if there were other languages spoken by Na'vi people on the other side of Pandora?" thing. Which do you think is more likely?

A) All Na'vis everywhere speak the same language. They plug into Eywa and listen to the same songs of the ancestors.

OR

B) Na'vis all over Pandora have as many different languages as humans on Earth do. When they plug into Eywa, they "hear" the common songs of their ancestors, but instead of "hearing" words, they "feel" and "understand" the meanings of the songs or whatever it is they hear from Eywa, because tsaheylu is non-linguistic.

?? I feel like there's be a lot of ramifications if either were true.

[Ekirä]

First of all, HRH at the underwear story.

But you bring up very good points, I've always wondered about that. To me, it would make sense that there would be more than one language.....but that leads me to ask, is there definitely continents on Pandora? Or all the land bodies connected? This seems unlikely to me, so I'm guessing there are continents, and I don't think that all the trees would connect to every other tree under the ocean. I'm guessing then you can only plug in and listen to your ancestors that connected to the trees on your continent, and not the others.......which makes me think that it's quite possible another continent would have another language. Kefyak? I wish we knew more about Pandora geographically.

[judytuna]

Hmmm. Grace talks about the whole world's network of trees ("that's a big number, right?") making up more connections than the human brain, so I believe that the whole world is connected in the same intarwebz, and that any Na'vi all over the world must necessarily be able to plug in anywhere and hear everything that all the other Na'vis can hear--if they listen.

(Maybe there are other things at play: maybe some people are better at "hearing" and interpreting Eywa than others, with the Tsahiks being the best at hearing stuff. We have more and less insightful/empathetic/intuitive humans, so why not Na'vis, right? Maybe some (rare) Na'vis go around with cups already full--if they have a way to express that concept, it had to exist some time, right? Imagine an a****** unpopular Na'vi who can't See. I bet Na'vis would try to help her and take her to counselors and stuff, but it has to have happened at some point, right? Where a Na'vi existed that didn't want to get along with other people?)

My brain is getting kind of out of hand. Have there been any wars? They've got spears and warpaint and stuff, but are we to understand that they only use weapons to hunt animals? But they have language and rallying war-cries to fight against the RDA. If there was ever a war between different clans or enemy factions or whatever, yet everyone plugged into the same Eywa.... can they hear each other? Can they feel what's going on in their enemy camps? Wouldn't that be more powerful than any RDA heat-scanning tech? LOL. So I guess my stance right now is that there have never been wars between different Na'vi clans, but then why have different clans? Just because of geological spread? Why make such a big deal of toruk makto bringing the clans together during a time of great sorrow? It is assumed that after the time of great sorrow, the clans went their separate ways. What about like people that met from different clans and fall in love? I wonder if they like visit their in-laws families and stuff. I wonder if anyone ever goes to study abroad with another clan, you know?

Like I said, it's getting out of hand. I could probably sit here and type what ifs for the next forty-eight hours straight. HRH

[Ekirä]

I don't remember exactly what Grace said (brain is failing me, haven't seen Avatar since the SE ), but she might have exaggerated just to get Parker's attention. I don't know......I'm guessing this will all be revealed in A2, but for now we can only speculate.

About the wars, there was a Na'vi nì'aw thread on this somewhere......but anyway, they do have the words warrior and war, so they can't be completely peaceful. And that would be an excellent battle technique--plug into a tree and try to hear where your enemy is.... As to having different clans, I can see why they would separate even if it wasn't caused by war. Take Hometree. You couldn't fit the whole Na'vi population in one tree.....so naturally, they would divide to have a logical amount living in a tree. Same with other areas, you wouldn't want a huge population....a lot of waste would be generated so it would just be easier to divide into clans and live in smaller groups.

[Seze]

Reminds me of the part in the movie where Jake prays to Eywa for help just before the battle, and Neytiri tells him that the great mother does not take sides, she only protects the balance of life.  So the tree communication mechanism may have a built in firewall that prohibits tree-talk abuses...

[wm.annis]

That Jake speaks to Eywa in English suggests that a major part of the communication is non-linguistic, but we do hear snippets of individual voices when he's plugged in the first time.

The background assumptions of life on Pandora are so strange that it's hard for me to think about it in normal human linguistic and anthropological terms.  If Eywa were already sentient before the Na'vi came along, and if they started riding ikran early, then I'd expect widespread use of one language with, at most, some minor dialectal variation.  Every other consideration of their situation, though, would make me posit a lot more languages on Pandora (though not quite as many as on Earth — Pandora is slightly smaller, after all).

It may suit Cameron's purposes better if they all speak the same language, though.

[Ekirä]

That Jake speaks to Eywa in English suggests that a major part of the communication is non-linguistic, but we do hear snippets of individual voices when he's plugged in the first time.

Although, Grace had just died....maybe the tree gains an automatic knowledge of English when she receives someone that was fluent.

[Ku'rända]

I could probably see it like this:

Look at US/Canada, Oz/NZ  it's a widespread area, and we all speak the same language.  I'd think that each tribe may have their own accent/dialect of the same base language

[judytuna]

That Jake speaks to Eywa in English suggests that a major part of the communication is non-linguistic, but we do hear snippets of individual voices when he's plugged in the first time.

Although, Grace had just died....maybe the tree gains an automatic knowledge of English when she receives someone that was fluent.

Yeah, Jake implored Eywa to look into Grace's memories, after all!

HRHRHRH @ tree firewall. HAHAHA

wm., I think what you said is very reasonable. The snippets of voices where what made me assume that you could hear the ancestors speaking (or maybe singing)... so I guess we just don't know.

[moohug4]

Before reading any of the comments, i'm going to say this;

It was the intent! Jake intended on moving forward, so the horse listened to him. It was like pointing at something. If i pointed at a rock, you would know where i was pointing. It is the same principle.

[Lolet]

I thought when Jake said, "I hear them!" he was merely surprised at hearing the voices of dead people. And when we tell our brain to do something, we picture it, we don't say it, and tsaheylu pretty much works the same way.

And there's no way all Na'vi all over Pandora (I'm guessing a HUGE population) all speak the exact same dialect, slang, etc. I speak differently than my grandmother, and we grew up in the same state.

[GEOvanne]

Its easier to understand if you think of it like a kind of telepathy. I don't have a specific example, but a telepath can speak to people of other tongues and even animals. Its the thought that counts and not the words you say, but saying the words help with the thought.

As for other languages, I think there is one language but each clan has their own way of making sentences (since word order is free) and different accents.

[Amaya]

Its easier to understand if you think of it like a kind of telepathy. I don't have a specific example, but a telepath can speak to people of other tongues and even animals. Its the thought that counts and not the words you say, but saying the words help with the thought.

As for other languages, I think there is one language but each clan has their own way of making sentences (since word order is free) and different accents.

and possibly (probably) some of its own words for items/ideas/things that exist only in their area.  The real question is, would, for example, a polar-region clan's word for "snow" be in some kind of ancestral memory which, say, an Omatikaya clansman could access if he was suddenly exposed to snow without being specifically given the word for it, or would he have to be told the word by someone who knew it?  OR would he be able to learn it by connecting through tsaheylu to a tree in that region, or even a tree in his own region, if he needed to?

[judytuna]

Yeah, I wonder if they can really send messages to each other via tree network. After all, toruk makto still had to physically ride out to all the neighboring clans and ask them for their aid.

Maybe, like, a desert Na'vi still understands the concept of cold and snow and igloos because of the connection to the tree, and understands that there are other Na'vis out there who live in places with cold and snow and igloos and PENGUINS. PANDORAN PENGUINS. Still don't now about the actual words. Maybe they can't send direct messages, though. ??

[Ekirä]

Yeah, I wonder if they can really send messages to each other via tree network. After all, toruk makto still had to physically ride out to all the neighboring clans and ask them for their aid.

Maybe, like, a desert Na'vi still understands the concept of cold and snow and igloos because of the connection to the tree, and understands that there are other Na'vis out there who live in places with cold and snow and igloos and PENGUINS. PANDORAN PENGUINS. Still don't now about the actual words. Maybe they can't send direct messages, though. ??

I think it's quite possible they can't send actual messages, and concerning the thing about Toruk Makto...I think the Na'vi would have wanted some proof that Toruk Makto was really Toruk Mako. And I don't think you could show that through a tree...

[Talis]

I think it's quite possible they can't send actual messages, and concerning the thing about Toruk Makto...I think the Na'vi would have wanted some proof that Toruk Makto was really Toruk Mako. And I don't think you could show that through a tree...

Yes I think it's not possible to send messages. as far as I know, everything you can hear if you tsaheyl si hu e.g. tree of souls are the voices of ancestors - dead people. They live in Eywa, so their thoughts can be heard. But no messages from living people. Well if that would be possible, they hadn't have to ride out to tell the other clans because if a Na'vi says something than it's true, so the others would have listened and know that toruk makto has appeared ("they don't even know a word for lie"). I think they just say somthing wrong if they think it's true. And if you haven't seen Toruk Makto you wouldn't say that, so if there was a messaging function they would have used it and everyone would have believed the message.

In fact that Neytiri translate Jake's speech to the other clans I would say they got the same language all over Pandora or at least in that region.
In my opinion Eywa understands everything (even English when Jake spoke to her before the war) because she got the "input" from Grace, which got the "links" from Na'vi to English in her brain.

So... I can not tell if A or B but I think they all speak the same language... maybe the ancestors which are heard are regional bound. Fact is that they weren't hearer bound, otherwise Jake wouldn't has heard anything.
[strange sentence I think - I hope you can understand it ]

[Tìrey Tsmukan]

Kaltxi...

Hmm... Different Na'vi languages... Well, while I don't have a huge theory yet, I hope I can answer a few things...

First off, Ekriä.

but that leads me to ask, is there definitely continents on Pandora? Or all the land bodies connected?

While I don't know exactly... I beleive there are more than one continent. But I don't know how many or how large. But what we have to remember is that Pandora is a moon! Not a planet. It's much smaller than earth, and doesn't have the same orbital periods, spin, or anything like that. So why should plate tectonics work the same? (plate tectonics: the thing that makes the continents move around, controlled by the mantel inflow and outflow. [just wanted to make sure you know what I mean]) So, as far as I know it does have more than one continent. But I can't be sure.

On the subject of number of connections in the human brain. I actually have some data on that:
So, the trees of Pandora have 10⁴ connections to the trees around them, and there are 10¹² trees. That adds up to a total of: 10¹⁶ connections. or: TEN QUADRILLION connections. (10,000,000,000,000,000)
The human brain has: 10¹²-10¹⁴ So, by reasoning. Eywa is quite a being. hrh... 

On the subject of messages. Talis said exactly what I was going to say. Other than I would add this:
I see the trees as sort of a place to find the memories of your ancestors, to share their experience, to learn from their mistakes and their triumphs. A place for contemplation. I don't see it as a messaging or transfer place between living Na'vi in different places. Thats what I've understood it to be...

So, now I have a theory... If, Eywa encompasses all of Pandora. (which we have no reason to believe or not believe) And all Na'vi have access to a tree of souls, and trees of voices. (Oh btw another thing I've heard is that the clans are arranged around the tree... meaning a singular tree of souls... not sure if that's even possible... but again, Pandora is much smaller than Earth...) And, if you truly can hear the voices of the dead, not just an imagining of what could be perceived as ancestors, then Language would probably evolved and remained basically unchanged wherever you are. However, I think accents, tendencies, thoughts, rituals, etc. Would have evolved along a different path. Because to hear the first songs is not to know exactly what they mean. Interpretation is up to the Tsahìk, (She is Tsahìk, she interprets the will of Eywa) Which means possible divergence along the lines of tribal tradition... 

It may suit Cameron's purposes better if they all speak the same language, though.

which of course we always have to come back to... sigh... if only we could go and see. I'd be willing to spend the Five years eight months twenty two days... though I guess it wouldn't feel like it...

(this spoiler is completely off topic, and doesn't have meaning on almost any level)

Spoiler

And is directly pointed at Kaltxi Palulukan.
I myself have been writing an Avatar fan fic... and I would just like to say that I think Eywa has spoken... I had the exact same thought... like, not two days ago. And almost sat down and started writing it... But, since it was in you're head first. I step aside to allow you to do what you wish.
also, Dustywhite? Am I missing something?

Well, Eywa ngahu! Hope I helped, or supplied an idea...

[true Navi]

im cannot say how i know this but navi all over pandora speak the same lanquage im sure of that but im not sure about accents/lingos

[Ekirä]

im cannot say how i know this but navi all over pandora speak the same lanquage im sure of that but im not sure about accents/lingos

I am curious how you know that....

[Ftxavanga Txe′lan]

im cannot say how i know this but navi all over pandora speak the same lanquage im sure of that but im not sure about accents/lingos

I am curious how you know that....

Yes, I'm also wondering. Could you please develop your point, ma true Navi?