Double Tsaheylu ?

[Rolyu]

Ambidextrous blue kittehs?  Can they get any more badass!?  So... opinion: What kind of disaster do you think would (or not) happen if Neytiri has for some spastic reason linked up with Toruk while she was riding in the back seat with Jake?  Would Toruk go crazy and start foaming at the mouth or would he even notice?  Maybe Jake would start foaming at the mouth but Toruk wouldn't notice and Neytiri would get control of Jake's mind instead!

Um.... what do you think?

[Technowraith]

It's more along the lines of (double tsayhalu):

Toruk: there's two of them great.
Jake: Toruk, turn right!
Neytiri: Toruk, turn left!
Toruk: **Crashes into tree**

[`Eylan Ayfalulukanä]

The who concept of the queue fascinates me, and is one of the things that makes me really like this story.

I will go with the theory suggested that tsahaylu with one animal queue results in the other 'muting', or performing a lesser function, like an ordinary sense organ.

The body plan of the Na`vi and the Pandoran higher animals is radically different. My suspicion is that the humanoid Na`vi developed along a completely different track than the other animals did. Still, the function of tsaheylu was somehow so important that the function was conserved in both evolutionary branches. The Na`vi ended up with one queue, the much heavier-built animals ended up with two.

This occurs in real nature as well. Some male reptiles (kimodo dragons, for one) have two penises. One for the left side and one for the right side. When they copulate with a female, they use the penis on the 'side' they are mating on.

[Technowraith]

Think about it this way:L what happens when two people try to drive a car at the same time?

Oooh! Ooh! I know this one! Pick me! Pick me! (Waves paw like Hermione spun out on caffeine)

So, like, when you are taking, like, Driver's Ed, and that creepy old shop teacher has you in the car and there are like two sets of controls. I mean it's totally weird, and there is a steering wheel on the right, like they have in some country, I think it's Englandistan, and anyway, so there are like TWO steering wheels, and TWO brakes, and I think the creepy old-guy's side has dominance or whatever, so if you try to turn right, and he wants to turn left and take you to Foster Freeze an get some ice cream, I think his steering wheel like takes over or whatever.

Srak?

As a side note, the only dual controls in driver's ed cars in the US is the brake pedal. There is no second steering wheel. The reason being is that seeing a second wheel on the the driver's right would confuse the driver. That could lead to an accident when the driver could possible get turning directions reversed or whatever due to seeing "the driver" to his or her right.

I'm sure that double tsayhalu wouldn't really do anything. As i think the animal would get way too confused. Conflicting commands more or less. The second neural queue is probably just there for astethic looks. After all, having just one looks a little odd. At least to me.

[Mithcoriel]

What kind of disaster do you think would (or not) happen if Neytiri has for some spastic reason linked up with Toruk while she was riding in the back seat with Jake?  Would Toruk go crazy and start foaming at the mouth or would he even notice?  Maybe Jake would start foaming at the mouth but Toruk wouldn't notice and Neytiri would get control of Jake's mind instead!

Or what if, Jake is linked with a Toruk, who is linked with a horse, who is linked with an Ikran, who is linked with another ikran, who is linked with a nantang who is linked with Neytiri? Would they be able to control each other?
(Now I'm imagining all these animals tapping their paws while the two Na'vi try to communicate through them..)

Toruk: there's two of them great.
Jake: Toruk, turn right!
Neytiri: Toruk, turn left!
Toruk: Huh **Crashes into tree**

Rofl 

Spoiler

Toruk, toruk, toruk of the jungle, watch out for that utral...

[Txur’Itan]

What kind of disaster do you think would (or not) happen if Neytiri has for some spastic reason linked up with Toruk while she was riding in the back seat with Jake?  Would Toruk go crazy and start foaming at the mouth or would he even notice?  Maybe Jake would start foaming at the mouth but Toruk wouldn't notice and Neytiri would get control of Jake's mind instead!

Or what if, Jake is linked with a Toruk, who is linked with a horse, who is linked with an Ikran, who is linked with another ikran, who is linked with a nantang who is linked with Neytiri? Would they be able to control each other?
(Now I'm imagining all these animals tapping their paws while the two Na'vi try to communicate through them..)

This daisy-chain idea might be something that is done between groups herding animals on Pandora, it might be necessary for two queues for just such a purpose.  What purpose it serves may be a bit like a combination of Elephant trunk groping, and communication.

Toruk: there's two of them great.
Jake: Toruk, turn right!
Neytiri: Toruk, turn left!
Toruk: Huh **Crashes into tree**

Rofl  

Spoiler

Toruk, toruk, toruk of the jungle, watch out for that utral...

Spoiler: LOL

To.ruk, To.ruk, To.ruk fpi na'.rìng
TEEEEEWWWWTIIIIIIII
U.tral.ti na.ri sey.ki

[Mithcoriel]

Spoiler

What does seyki mean? A form of si?

By the way, doesn't "fpi" mean "for the sake of"?

[Txur’Itan]

Spoiler: NEW LEVELS OF OFF TOPIC LOLZ

What does seyki mean? A form of si?

Yes, causative.

I Modified a Na'vi idiom, in an attempt at humor.

nari s<eyk>i
eye do-CAUSATIVE

By the way, doesn't "fpi" mean "for the sake of"?

Yes you are 100% correct sir

I was taking poetic license with singing, one needs it to match the music more than the grammar for it to be singable in all Na'vi.  Try singing it where I broke it out, it actually sounds pretty good. =)


Na'vi: To.ruk,      To.ruk,      To.ruk      fpi na'.rìng
LIT:   Last Shadow, Last Shadow, Last Shadow for the sake of forest
APRX:  George,      George,      George      of the          jungle
Na'vi: TEEEEEWWWWTIIIIIIII
LIT:   WOOOOOOOOOOW
APRX:  AAAA'A'A'AAAAAA
Na'vi: U.tral.ti na.ri sey.ki
LIT:   Tree-ACC  eye   do-CAUSATIVE
APRX:  Watch out for that tree!

Anyhow --> Back to Double Tsahaylu!

[Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan]

It's more along the lines of (double tsayhalu):

Toruk: there's two of them great.
Jake: Toruk, turn right!
Neytiri: Toruk, turn left!
Toruk: **Crashes into tree**

But if Toruk had any sense at all, he would realize that Neytiri is the awesomer of the two and follow her directions.

[Rolyu]

Neytiri is female, however, and we still have to settle whether or not you can bond with an Ikran or Toruk of a different gender.

[Mithcoriel]

Neytiri is female, however, and we still have to settle whether or not you can bond with an Ikran or Toruk of a different gender.

Errr, what? o_O Why should the gender matter?

For what it's worth, the Pa'li Jake rode on is female.
Neytiri's Ikran is female ("do not look in her eye").

[Rolyu]

I was referring to another conversation somewhere in Customs and Culture, a while back we were discussing the fact that Neytiri's Ikran was female, Jake's was male, and they always referred to Jake's Toruk as male... so maybe when you make the lifetime bond with an Ikran or Toruk, they are the same gender as you. 

[Mithcoriel]

Could be. But it seems to me the sample size is too small to decide.
What makes you think Jake's Ikran is male, btw?

If this were true, that would mean that for some reason, while you're searching for your Ikran, only Ikran of your gender are drawn to you, and attack you, "choosing" you.

I mean one would think it's the other way around: that an ikran considers you to be his mate when you bond with him and that that's why he won't bond with another Na'vi. (the same way dogs consider you to be the alpha male of the pack.) So it would make sense if you're the opposite gender.

[Tìrey Tsmukan]

Neytiri is female, however, and we still have to settle whether or not you can bond with an Ikran or Toruk of a different gender.

Errr, what? o_O Why should the gender matter?

For what it's worth, the Pa'li Jake rode on is female.
Neytiri's Ikran is female ("do not look in her eye").

I was referring to another conversation somewhere in Customs and Culture, a while back we were discussing the fact that Neytiri's Ikran was female, Jake's was male, and they always referred to Jake's Toruk as male... so maybe when you make the lifetime bond with an Ikran or Toruk, they are the same gender as you.

This is a very good point, perhaps the gender of the Ikran does matter when the tsahaylu is made. I would think that would make sense, as you would be melding your mind with one of the same... ahem... thoughts...
Now I can also explain why with the Pa'li it doesn't matter as much: when the tsahaylu is made with a Pa'li you are melding your mind with a much lesser creature. (don't be offended, I'm saying in a intellectual way) while with an Ikran you are melding with a Very intelligent creature. an example of this would be Jakes first flight. when his Ikran was flying erratically, it was probably trying to get it's control back. now, if you don't agree with me imagine this: You're a young Ikran, In your prime, suddenly you see this Na'vi guy. You realize he's got what it takes, suddenly your fighting this person, but you can't bite him, as of the thing around your mouth. then suddenly your mind is merged with his, and the first thing you hear from him is, "ha ha! you're mine." how indignant would you be? all I'm saying is that the Ikran is much smarter than a Pa'li, and it fought for it's control until Jake made it clear who was in charge.
Now as to what this matters for gender, the mind is a strange thing, I would say there would be some conflicting thoughts when the bond is made between two of a different gender. (with the exception of the Tsaheylu between two Na'vi in love)

as Kaltxi Palulukan said, maybe we'll have to ask Eywa.

'Ivong Na'vi!

Kìyevame ulte Eywa ngahu.


Edit: I was writing this as Mithcoriel posted his, but I have something to say about his.

I slightly disagree that The Ikran would think of you as it's mate. again, if your thoughts meld you could probably tell that kind of thing. as far as I know, an Ikran bonded with a Na'vi still goes and mates with other Ikran. also, what does that make Seze?

[Mithcoriel]

This is a very good point, perhaps the gender of the Ikran does matter when the tsahaylu is made. I would think that would make sense, as you would be melding your mind with one of the same... ahem... thoughts...

Well, that makes sense, but then: how does the Ikran know what gender the Na'vi is?
I mean, it's a bit dubious anyway what an Ikran is actually doing when it's supposedly "choosing" a Na'vi. Is it really thinking: "Hey, this guy could become my rider, I'll test him by trying to kill him and obey him if he succeeds"? But maybe that's just me. If the Ikran really is aware of the Na'vi's gender when it's choosing him, you mean it's actually thinking "This creature is like me, my gender, we'll get along if he catches me"?

Also, I find it hard to believe that the connection can go across the species barrier, but not across the gender barrier. I mean who says that female Na'vi and female Ikran think alike? There's bound to be animal species where the males act more like our women and the female more like our men, etc.

I slightly disagree that The Ikran would think of you as it's mate. again, if your thoughts meld you could probably tell that kind of thing. as far as I know, an Ikran bonded with a Na'vi still goes and mates with other Ikran. also, what does that make Seze?

I think an Ikran thinks you're its mate, as I said, the same way a dog thinks you're the alpha male, even if you're a woman. Just like an animal you raised by hand will consider you its mommy wether you're male or female.  "Mate" and "alpha male" are just sort of roles that another individual plays. I don't think the Ikran cares about its Na'vi rider's gender. I mean, what are the Ikran's mating instincts? It knows (or feels, or will be guided by its instincts to do at some point) that it will at one time bond with another individual, for life, and then not bond with any other individual again. It probably has instincts that ensure it will only be attracted by other Ikran of the opposite gender, it simply won't do tsahaylu with anything else. But maybe once tsahaylu is made, even if it's against the will of the ikran, the Ikran will feel bonded with whatever it tsahaylued with, and stay loyal to that creature, loosing the desire to bond with anything else. (The ASG says Toruk mate for life. I don't know if it says so for Ikran too, but would make sense.)
I could very well imagine that, after an Ikran couple has chosen each other and made tsahaylu, they then fly around still connected together, to seal the bond, which is why the Na'vi have to do the same.

And, you mentioned this thing about control. That's a subject I'm highly curious about, and I just started a thread here about that.

[Tìrey Tsmukan]

This is a very good point, perhaps the gender of the Ikran does matter when the tsahaylu is made. I would think that would make sense, as you would be melding your mind with one of the same... ahem... thoughts...

Well, that makes sense, but then: how does the Ikran know what gender the Na'vi is?
I mean, it's a bit dubious anyway what an Ikran is actually doing when it's supposedly "choosing" a Na'vi. Is it really thinking: "Hey, this guy could become my rider, I'll test him by trying to kill him and obey him if he succeeds"? But maybe that's just me. If the Ikran really is aware of the Na'vi's gender when it's choosing him, you mean it's actually thinking "This creature is like me, my gender, we'll get along if he catches me"?

Also, I find it hard to believe that the connection can go across the species barrier, but not across the gender barrier. I mean who says that female Na'vi and female Ikran think alike? There's bound to be animal species where the males act more like our women and the female more like our men, etc.

I slightly disagree that The Ikran would think of you as it's mate. again, if your thoughts meld you could probably tell that kind of thing. as far as I know, an Ikran bonded with a Na'vi still goes and mates with other Ikran. also, what does that make Seze?

I think an Ikran thinks you're its mate, as I said, the same way a dog thinks you're the alpha male, even if you're a woman. Just like an animal you raised by hand will consider you its mommy wether you're male or female.  "Mate" and "alpha male" are just sort of roles that another individual plays. I don't think the Ikran cares about its Na'vi rider's gender.

Yes but they don't have the connection of the Tsaheylu, I've done some looking about though, and I was wrong when I said that the Ikran still goes and Mates with other Ikran. as far as I know, the Ikran do make tsaheylu when they mate. So that would be a violation to the "bonded for life" thing. perhaps you are correct in that the Ikran see's you as it's mate, (at least in an intellectual sense) and so maybe the gender doesn't matter. but there would be some interesting thoughts there...

Irayo ulte Eywa ngahu, ma 'eylan Mithcoriel.

[guest2859]

Or they could be like input/output sides.

[Nifty]

Yes that makes sense, so they can't get confused with messages. Although when tsaheylu is made a Na'vi feels the animal's pain and other emotions...

I concor. It reminds me of the book Eragon, tsaheylu and the connection Saphira and Eragon have are similiar. Anyhow although what I'm gonna say is gonna be somewhat stupid, I'm gonan say it. What if that once tsaheylu is made that some neural connection is made that alerts one or the other of their current status.

Take the scene after the destruction of hometree and after the scientists (jake etc.) escape. Jake upon linking with his avatar, roams around the area of destruction, and then poof* his Ikran comes out of the skies to greet him.

Sure there are some flaws in what I'm saying since;

1) It might have been done just for the movie
2) Coincidence
3) Many more flaws that could be thought of that I haven't thought of yet.

Anyhow, lets just say what-if Jake's Ikran really did fly to him. What I want to know is how... Like is it due to the connection of the tsaheylu, or some other matter.

Going back to the matter of a double-tsaheylu. I reckon that both Na'vi (and i can't explain this) would loss control over the animal.

[Mithcoriel]

Ma Nìftxavangutan : You mean there might be some non-physical constant connection between Jake and his Ikran?
Not entirely impossible of course.

But if a Na'vi has this connection to his Ikran, then why not with his partner, and all the other creatures he ever tsaheylued with?

Now, I think the reason the Ikran flew to Jake was: remember, the Ikran all nest on top of hometree. Once the tree was destroyed, they probably flew out of it, flying around in the sky aimlessly. By the time Jake linked back, he was the only Na'vi wandering around that "ground zero". His Ikran must have spotted him from the air and flown to him. Maybe it was looking for him for a while, among all the fleeing Na'vi.

[Technowraith]

Ma Nìftxavangutan : You mean there might be some non-physical constant connection between Jake and his Ikran?
Not entirely impossible of course.

But if a Na'vi has this connection to his Ikran, then why not with his partner, and all the other creatures he ever tsaheylued with?

Now, I think the reason the Ikran flew to Jake was: remember, the Ikran all nest on top of hometree. Once the tree was destroyed, they probably flew out of it, flying around in the sky aimlessly. By the time Jake linked back, he was the only Na'vi wandering around that "ground zero". His Ikran must have spotted him from the air and flown to him. Maybe it was looking for him for a while, among all the fleeing Na'vi.

Jake's Ikran has a bond with him. Sio in a way, when Jake never left Hometree, his ikran stayed behind. Why would it leave if it knew it's rider was still around? Though to the ikran it must be kinda weird when Jake exits link. Though we don't have any idea how entering and exiting link effects the tsayhalu bond between rider and ikran. As in, the ikran bonds with an avatar. It knows the avatar's presence. Avatar exits link. Ikran sees his/her rider "blink off the radar." What then? Making an assumption in a way here, but if you go along with it, it does kinda make sense.