Double Tsaheylu ?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Eywa sent him to Jskesuuuly. All of you who doubt Eywa shall suffer the wrath of hungry ikrans (see final battle scene).

I have been complaining to myself about that scene ever since the first time I saw the movie. It is really cool visually, and a wonderful notion, but in the haze of smoke and ash, scent becomes a non-issue, and sight is limited, even from above. Trooo, ikran may have been circling above (aimlessly), or somehow Jake's banshee may have 'seen him" get up and start walking, but that fog is really thick in the scene. You don't see the banshee until it is right on top of Jake. It is a necessary plot device, but fully explainable under the idea that Eywa wanted Jake to "do something," as, both before and after that scene, she holds Jake's hand every step of the way--and answers his needs (she even gets him a hot girlfriend).

Other explanations have a very hard time standing up to scrutiny.

[Txur’Itan]

Eywa sent him to Jskesuuuly. All of you who doubt Eywa shall suffer the wrath of hungry ikrans (see final battle scene).

I have been complaining to myself about that scene ever since the first time I saw the movie. It is really cool visually, and a wonderful notion, but in the haze of smoke and ash, scent becomes a non-issue, and sight is limited, even from above. Trooo, ikran may have been circling above (aimlessly), or somehow Jake's banshee may have 'seen him" get up and start walking, but that fog is really thick in the scene. You don't see the banshee until it is right on top of Jake. It is a necessary plot device, but fully explainable under the idea that Eywa wanted Jake to "do something," as, both before and after that scene, she holds Jake's hand every step of the way--and answers his needs (she even gets him a hot girlfriend).

Other explanations have a very hard time standing up to scrutiny.

That or infrared eye sight as indicated in the ASG.

The 'angtsìkioang had two queues.  The Palulukan had two queues, the nantang had two queues, the Yerik has two queues, the Pa'li has two queues, the Riti is questionable until we get a better look, the Ikran and the Toruk have two queues, the only things that certainly didn't were the Prolemuris, the Fan Lizards and the Na'vi.

Is there anything further to discuss on this particular topic?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Sounds like a good time to lock it up bossman.

EDIT: Oh yeah, this is MY forum. Psaik. Locked. Start a new (interesting) discussion. This one is played out.

[Tsu'roen]

That or infrared eye sight as indicated in the ASG.

On which page? I tried to find it for a while now with no luck.

Sounds like a good time to lock it up bossman.

EDIT: Oh yeah, this is MY forum. Psaik. Locked. Start a new (interesting) discussion. This one is played out.

Why should a topic be locked just because a mod thinks it has run it's course? - someone might find something new and want to post it. A new topic may go unnoticed by people who posted here because it doesn't show up in their "new replies to your posts" list.
I think locking topics for no other reason than that a mod decides it has run its course is a bad practice.
Only topics should be locked that cause fights and are getting rude.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Sounds like a good time to lock it up bossman.

EDIT: Oh yeah, this is MY forum. Psaik. Locked. Start a new (interesting) discussion. This one is played out.

Why should a topic be locked just because a mod thinks it has run it's course? - someone might find something new and want to post it. A new topic may go unnoticed by people who posted here because it doesn't show up in their "new replies to your posts" list.
I think locking topics for no other reason than that a mod decides it has run its course is a bad practice.
Only topics should be locked that cause fights and are getting rude.

I AGREE. Stop being bossy! "This is MY forum"?!?! I think this is a very interesting topic.
And I think many people think it's interesting too. Let people post a bit more...

Thank you for those kind and enlightening words. And thank you as well for being so polite and considerate of other people's feelings. As moderator, it is my "job" to weed out old, tired subjects that have gone off topic or have been talked to death, so that new topics or new discussions can blossom. "My" forum was referring to that responsibility, spoken directly to another moderator, meaning that I realized that if anyone was going to allow this thread to die, that responsibility fell on my shoulders.

In case you didn't realize this, none of us get paid for this job. It doesn't get us dates, there is no "power" to be had. It is simply more responsibility, and less time of the day we have to do other things. You have helped derail this conversation from it's stated topic, and now I have to clean up that mess as well. If you have a problem with the rules of this forum, I suggest you take it up with the founder of the forum, or leave.

Now, if anyone has discussions relating to the original post in this thread, let's have at it.

[Mithcoriel]

Mahweh ma ayeylan. ^^
My suggestion: keep the thread open so people can post links to similar topics they've started. E.g. if we're gonna continue discussing how Jake's Ikran found him, maybe someone will decide to start a new topic about it and put the link here.
Another subject we touched on that could be a new thread: what's the relationship between rider and ikran? (Does the ikran consider you its mate, etc.)

On the subject of double-tsahaylu: New idea: the queues have these little tentacles that automatically bond with the other person's queue. Maybe, once one queue is connected, the other won't even do the tsahaylu? That would be a step before what I suggested earlier, that the brain simply ignores the input from the second queue.

['eylan na'viyä]

i think tsaheylu does not just work like a steering wheel (i know it was only used for exemplification).As it is a direct connection between neurons theoreticaly every possible kind of communication is possible. i could imagine there is high level communication, like emotion and some simple languagelike command and notification sharing as well as low level communication for specifically moving and feeling limbs.... I also think the ikran is not simply "overtaken", its more like a mixture of control instincts emotions convincement and maybe friendship and the ikran is able to interpret and ignore commands when they are against the instinct or reflexes or the maktoyu is not 100% shure when doing something dangerous.

the whole left/right-handed and left/right-tsaheylu thing is maybe just like learning a sport(eg: snowboarding) right or leftsided. It doesnt matter much with wich side you beginn to learn but once you learned it you will be like a beginner when you change the side. but if you want you can learn it for the other side too. I think both sides can be "teached" interchangeable but the "learned" cannot be used interchangeably.

My theory about the chosing: I could imagine its for the sake of genetic compatibility wich could be important for bonding. maybe the bioluminescent dots and the pattern of the sikn of the Na'vi is a genetic fingerprint wich an ikran might be able to interpret unconsciously (and the otherwayround with the ikrans characteristics). alternatively the same could also work via scent. Actually human have the possibilty to unconsciously react on scents.

About the gender question: maybe its just specialisation and adoption wich can be a benefit for both sides. In this case it wouldnt theoretically be important if same gender or different genders bond but it must be the same combination for all na'vi and ikran, and from what we know it would be female-female / male-male

['eylan na'viyä]

On the subject of double-tsahaylu: New idea: the queues have these little tentacles that automatically bond with the other person's queue. Maybe, once one queue is connected, the other won't even do the tsahaylu? That would be a step before what I suggested earlier, that the brain simply ignores the input from the second queue.

that sounds reasonable and realistic

[Robert Nantangä Tirea]

About the gender question: maybe its just specialisation and adoption wich can be a benefit for both sides. In this case it wouldnt theoretically be important if same gender or different genders bond but it must be the same combination for all na'vi and ikran, and from what we know it would be female-female / male-male

So what about a female toruk makto? Not being sexist here, but one glance at the leonopteryx and well let's just say it's not doing anything for me as a guy.    ok but no seriously I would guess the toruk from the movie at least would be a guy but hey what do I know, animal genders can be almost impossible to tell. It would make sense that there would have to be female toruks (a-sexuality ftw? nah) so I guess it would still be feasible for a female-female male-male thing. I guess that makes Jake really lucky then that the only turok for miles around HAPPENED to be a dude lol (unless they're more common than they seem? arg so many questions!)

[kintìomum]

Toruk are solitary and territorial with huge territories of many square kilometres.
Somewhere (I think it was in "Question about Toruk") we had the note that it might be that toruk are able to change their gender in accordance to "what is needed" -read: what is best for the balance which is preferred by Eywa.
Not like they would switch everytime another toruk comes along or a territory gets vacant but since they are territorial (RDA-science believes that they might be attacking Scorpions and Samsons for mistaking them as invading their airspace) it's quite easy:
Newborn toruk is due to replace one that's at the end of it's life and so "chooses" the right gender to fill the blank spot on the map.
So, if Eywa had all that planned it's reasonable that the "right" toruk-gender was in spot long before Jake arrived...

[Tsu'roen]

On the subject of double-tsahaylu: New idea: the queues have these little tentacles that automatically bond with the other person's queue. Maybe, once one queue is connected, the other won't even do the tsahaylu? That would be a step before what I suggested earlier, that the brain simply ignores the input from the second queue.

that sounds reasonable and realistic

I agree with this for a controlling tsaheylu.

But the ASG (in the first paragraph on page 72) describes that (wild) direhorses constantly seek contact with the tendrils of their antennae and speculates that this connection is among other a means of communication about dangers or food sources. It doesn't say that they actually bond by intertwining the tendrils fully as we have seen the Na'vi doing with the horses or banshee. It rather implies a brief, short contact. It also doesn't say if both antennae of a direhorse can be in contact with two other direhorses at the same time. But those inter-herd communication would only really work if many horses can be connected at the same time.
So I would say that non-controlling light double tsaheylu for communication within a species is possible.

[kintìomum]

I agree with this for a controlling tsaheylu.
(snip)
So I would say that non-controlling light double tsaheylu for communication within a species is possible.

You mean the light connection might work like a text message while the full link is comparable to a phone or even video call?
Would make sense.
(And feeds a theory I have about Na'vi being able to work in concert with a pack of nantang.)

[Mithcoriel]

i think tsaheylu does not just work like a steering wheel (i know it was only used for exemplification).As it is a direct connection between neurons theoreticaly every possible kind of communication is possible. i could imagine there is high level communication, like emotion and some simple languagelike command and notification sharing as well as low level communication for specifically moving and feeling limbs.... I also think the ikran is not simply "overtaken", its more like a mixture of control instincts emotions convincement and maybe friendship and the ikran is able to interpret and ignore commands when they are against the instinct or reflexes or the maktoyu is not 100% shure when doing something dangerous.

That would fit nicely into my thread about wether tsaheylu is a form of control.

the whole left/right-handed and left/right-tsaheylu thing is maybe just like learning a sport(eg: snowboarding) right or leftsided. It doesnt matter much with wich side you beginn to learn but once you learned it you will be like a beginner when you change the side. but if you want you can learn it for the other side too. I think both sides can be "teached" interchangeable but the "learned" cannot be used interchangeably

.

Not so sure about that. The queue is after all more of a sensory organ than a function organ. It would be more like learning to read with only one eye or memorizing sounds with one ear, and then using the other, wouldn't it?

My theory about the chosing: I could imagine its for the sake of genetic compatibility wich could be important for bonding.
...
About the gender question: maybe its just specialisation and adoption wich can be a benefit for both sides. In this case it wouldnt theoretically be important if same gender or different genders bond but it must be the same combination for all na'vi and ikran, and from what we know it would be female-female / male-male

Once again: people assuming some Na'vi are more fit for a specific Ikran due to their genes or gender...I just find that weird. Na'vi DNA must be quite a tad different from Ikran DNA, so then why should the minute differences from one Na'vi to the next have any significance at all? Same with the gender

I mean consider this: what if a Na'vi of the "wrong" gender ends up bonding with an Ikran: so what? I very much doubt he wouldn't be able to fly. And I have a hard time seeing how that should make a huge difference to their teamwork.

So what about a female toruk makto? Not being sexist here, but one glance at the leonopteryx and well let's just say it's not doing anything for me as a guy.  ok but no seriously I would guess the toruk from the movie at least would be a guy but hey what do I know, animal genders can be almost impossible to tell.

Well, like you said: it's almost impossible to tell their gender at all. So that would kind of be blind speculation. Therefore I don't see why we should worry that this might interfere with our theories.
Anyway, I have no problem imagining that Jake's toruk could have been female. Though intuitively I of course thought male.

[Ekirä]

Reading this thread, I was thinking, what would be sent to the rider's brain if the animal died while they were connected through Tsaheylu? Would the connection just stop or would they feel the animal's pain (emotional)?
I remember that Neytiri's ikran Seze was shot while they were connected, but it didn't show much about how she felt. She could tell immediately something was wrong--but was that just because Seze wasn't flying straight anymore?
My apologies if this has already been discussed, I'm new here but I did read through the whole thread and I didn't see it brought up.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Reading this thread, I was thinking, what would be sent to the rider's brain if the animal died while they were connected through Tsaheylu? Would the connection just stop or would they feel the animal's pain (emotional)?
I remember that Neytiri's ikran Seze was shot while they were connected, but it didn't show much about how she felt. She could tell immediately something was wrong--but was that just because Seze wasn't flying straight anymore?
My apologies if this has already been discussed, I'm new here but I did read through the whole thread and I didn't see it brought up.

I think they underplayed that (due to pacing, movie length). If JC had written an Avatar novel he would have really gone into that. Also, the same thing happened when she was riding palu (whom I am guessing she was bonded with given her motions/control during the "break that cannon the colonel is holding NOW!!" scene).

My point being that I think, given her speech to Jake about the pa'li earlier, and then with Seze later, JC was indicating an extreme intimacy. Also see what the ASG has to say about tsaheylu and the intimacy there. BUT--the movie does kind of gloss over all of those, leaving the point wide open for debate. So this is a good question. Great first post: cookie for you.

[Robert Nantangä Tirea]

Reading this thread, I was thinking, what would be sent to the rider's brain if the animal died while they were connected through Tsaheylu? Would the connection just stop or would they feel the animal's pain (emotional)?
I remember that Neytiri's ikran Seze was shot while they were connected, but it didn't show much about how she felt. She could tell immediately something was wrong--but was that just because Seze wasn't flying straight anymore?
My apologies if this has already been discussed, I'm new here but I did read through the whole thread and I didn't see it brought up.

This is a good question. There's a potentialy broad range of feedback that could occur here. It could range from:

1) The feedback you get when your computer shutsdown while using it.
Basicly you're left with no incoming information. No negative impact on your part.

2) The feedback from the link system when it's shutdown mid link.
Speculative on this part, from the movie we get the impression it's like being erked awake, maybe a mild headache, otherwise no negative impact.

3) (need mid level exampkle in here)
The connection would probably be represented somewhere in here.

4) The mental pain drivers of Angels in Evangelion receive when their Angels take damage.
Ever watched Evangelion Neongenesis? The drivers are mentally linked to their "machines" which allows them to control them like their body but it means they can feel all damage taken as well as if it happened to them.

5) Matrix level link, parallel existance.
If you die in the Matrix, you die in real life (unless you're Neo of course). This obviously can't be the case because Seze dies while tsaheylu'd to Neytiri and Norm's avatar dies when linked to him and both of them turned out fine, so just using this as an example for the extreme side of the spectrum.