Double Tsaheylu ?

[K]

Hi there !

I've a question that stumped me and I hope that you'll be able to answer or even discuss about it.
According to the physiognomy of Pandorian's animal species like equidius, banshees or thanator, we can notice the presence of two neural queues
(the bond's receptor where the Tsahaylu is made).
The question is : What's happening if two Na'vis are both connected at the same time on each of the two queues of the animal ?
I mean, is it possible ?

In the case of equidius riding, who has the "control" if two Na'vis are connected ?
Can we imagine the effects of such an experiment ?

I've also noticed that, in the movie, all the characters are always connecting their queue on the left receptor of animals.
I suppose that's a question of convenience for right-handed people, using bows or spears, to allow more gestures without their queue bothering them...
Can we think that a left-handed Na'vi or Avatar will make his bond on the other side ?



Hoping that the subject hasn't been treated yet !
Fix me if I made a mistake or if my english is terrible : I'm French actually  

[Toruk Makto]

Hoping that the subject hasn't been treated yet !
Fix me if I made a mistake or if my english is terrible : I'm French actually  

Never be ashamed of who you are! 

That's a good question. I think I read somewhere that only one of the queues could be used for tsahaylu bonds.

[Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan]

For the most part, it seems to me that the Na'vi mostly make tsahelyu with the animal's left queue, wether that's preference or some other reason, I don't know. As for two Na'vi making tsahelyu with the same animal, I know that it is impossible with the ikran, since they only have one rider in their whole lifetime. Wether its possible with other creatures, I don't know.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Well most of the Na'vi are left handed, a little quirk Cameron decided since he is left-handed, so it would make sense that they would grab their queue with their left hand more often then their right.

I'd imagine that two Na'vi linked to one animal would be overwhelming and could probably lead to shock.

[K]

Well most of the Na'vi are left handed, a little quirk Cameron decided since he is left-handed

Wow, I didn't know about that, that's quite a good explanation, Tìng !
But something disturbs me :
Indeed, when you're right-handed and if you do horse-back riding, you always get up on the left side ( you first lift over your right leg ).
And I guess they picked that up in the movie. But the problem is, according to Tìng's quotation, that Na'vis seem to be lefties !  

Regarding the two queues of Pandorian animals, I found a theory dealing with an Input / Output system :
The left antenna which is the "receptor" should be for the input, and the right one is concerning output.
That's an interesting hypothesis, making a link with Txepsiyu's answer :

I think I read somewhere that only one of the queues could be used for tsahaylu bonds.

Any Thoughts ?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

It could just be a case of bilateral symmetry. Nature duplicates. That way if we "lose one," we have another to get by (if we can). Eyes, nostrils, ears, handses... In animals, who are far more prone to damage--due to the nature of their existence--they probably have two queues for that very reason. People (Na'vi and sawtute) are expected to take better care of their toys, and therefore get "one" queue, but two handses and lots of toses and such.

Also, tsaheylu is a two-way connection, but the theory was worth investigating. Double tsaheylu (my mind is recoiling from the very image) would (speculation---->) be intense mental torture of the receiver, due to the difficulty of inter-species "mind melding," and adding simultaneous conflicting desires, impulses, probes, and the "feedback noise" (like you get when a microphone is set too close to a speaker) would be excruciating. Just thots.

[Rolyu]

I think it could count as animal cruelty.  I am also wincing at the idea of that...

[Tsu'roen]

Well most of the Na'vi are left handed, a little quirk Cameron decided since he is left-handed, so it would make sense that they would grab their queue with their left hand more often then their right.
...

But it seems the left-handedness applies largely only to archery. They use their knives for example with their right hands:



As for the dual links - they may make sense either in a herd or simply for redundancy. The bonds the Na'vi have with animals are to "impose" their will on them. But animals of the same species may use it as a means of communication among each other or use them like antennae for probing plants (as seen with the direhorses). I mean the queues must have developed for a reason more basic and vital than tsaheylu with the Na'vi. So in such cases using both links at the same time may make sense.

[Hì'irawr]

You definitely point out a very important fact! The queues are a natural design (not made for Na'vi Communication) so having two might be for anamalistic communication. It still doesnt make sense why they would need two for this process unless they were trying to communicate as a group together? The Navi have the spirit trees, where they can kinda link up as a group, maybe animals dont have this so they just share by doing some form of duel link? Or group link? I have a picture of a bunch of horse standing in a circle with their queues reaching out to each other lol. Something else to add is that on Pandora it seems like all plant and animal life is very connected, hence Eywa, and Why they have Queues in the first place. Or maybe Im just confused and tired. Goodnightl.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

It may just come down to the wonders of bilateral symmetry (two eyes, ears, brain lobes, etc.). We may have to ask Eywa.

[Mithcoriel]

Regarding the two queues of Pandorian animals, I found a theory dealing with an Input / Output system :
The left antenna which is the "receptor" should be for the input, and the right one is concerning output.

That would be contradicted by the fact that Jake was able to feel the horses' breathing, heartbeat, and strong legs, so the horse must have also sent him information through the bond.


Anyway: we know pandoran creatures have a part of the brain that's responsible for the queue (seen on Jake's brain scan). Maybe this part of the brain regulates the information that comes in via tsahaylu, and once one queue is connected, the other one is ignored, like "going numb", so a second Na'vi wouldn't have any effect. Hm, but that would be contradicted by the idea of a herd exchanging information. Well, still the animal might be able to decide which bond to pay attention to.

[Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan]

Mithcoriel, your thoery of one side going numb when the other side is connected to seems to be a very good one. I can imagine that two Na'vi trying to exert their will over one animal could lead to problems.

[Tìrey Tsmukan]

this is a very interesting subject. I had wondered about that. I agree with what Tsu'roen said about the use for herd mentality. but it also raises another question. Why don't Na'vi have two as well? is this one of the reasons the Na'vi evolved speech? Kxawm

now I'll go back to the question. I agree with Kaltxi Palulukan. Only Eywa and the Na'vi themselves know. but I will speculate none the less. if we go by what Mithcoriel said. then I would think that the person with greater will would be the one in control. not necessarily the one on the wrong side. this could perhaps lead to control over the other Na'vi as well. Just a thought.

as it is, I think all ideas are credible. Nwotx aswok.

Kìyevame ulte Eywa ayngahu.

[Tsu'roen]

... Why don't Na'vi have two as well? is this one of the reasons the Na'vi evolved speech? Kxawm
...

I think that's very possible. Also the Na'vi bond may have a different quality/depth than those of other Pandoran animals.

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

. . . then I would think that the person with greater will would be the one in control. . . .

This makes me think.

I am always thinking about the future novels (see what Fox did with Star Wars--and the hundreds of novels). Scene: a young Na'vi taronyu tries to pull a Jake and become "Toruk Makto." Let's say he is not the fastest, strongest, best in any way, Na'vi. He wants to prove himself to Ninat (my g/f) or some other Na'vi hottie.

But Toruk wins the dominance in the bond. I haven't figured out what would happen, but it would be ugly.  <--click me!

[Txur’Itan]

Spoiler

Well most of the Na'vi are left handed, a little quirk Cameron decided since he is left-handed, so it would make sense that they would grab their queue with their left hand more often then their right.
...

But it seems the left-handedness applies largely only to archery. They use their knives for example with their right hands:

As for the dual links - they may make sense either in a herd or simply for redundancy. The bonds the Na'vi have with animals are to "impose" their will on them. But animals of the same species may use it as a means of communication among each other or use them like antennae for probing plants (as seen with the direhorses). I mean the queues must have developed for a reason more basic and vital than tsaheylu with the Na'vi. So in such cases using both links at the same time may make sense.

She does favor the right hand when killing the Nantang with her knife in the beginning of the film, this could be a goof.  However, warriors and knife fighters with some measure of experience use their strong hand for control of and defense against an opponent, stabbing and slashing is the easy part.  Even more experienced knife users can use both hands nearly equally with the blade.  I cannot say that Neytiri is either of these, but from my own experience and knowledge, this is the case.  I have not seen anything to indicate special techniques for knife use, but the point down blade out is unusual of a hunting carry of knives, and may have been from Jakes influence.  Although, I actually don't think J.C. put much of that sort of detail on the Na'vi fighting methods.

Spoiler

... Why don't Na'vi have two as well? is this one of the reasons the Na'vi evolved speech? Kxawm
...

I think that's very possible. Also the Na'vi bond may have a different quality/depth than those of other Pandoran animals.

I agree, considering observations from the film and interactions between Na'vi & animals. They probably have more significant controll via the link even though they only have the one.

Spoiler

Mithcoriel, your thoery of one side going numb when the other side is connected to seems to be a very good one. I can imagine that two Na'vi trying to exert their will over one animal could lead to problems.

An interesting idea, we probably won't know for sure until AVATAR 3 is over.

Spoiler

Regarding the two queues of Pandorian animals, I found a theory dealing with an Input / Output system :
The left antenna which is the "receptor" should be for the input, and the right one is concerning output.

That would be contradicted by the fact that Jake was able to feel the horses' breathing, heartbeat, and strong legs, so the horse must have also sent him information through the bond.


Anyway: we know pandoran creatures have a part of the brain that's responsible for the queue (seen on Jake's brain scan). Maybe this part of the brain regulates the information that comes in via tsahaylu, and once one queue is connected, the other one is ignored, like "going numb", so a second Na'vi wouldn't have any effect. Hm, but that would be contradicted by the idea of a herd exchanging information. Well, still the animal might be able to decide which bond to pay attention to.

As far as I think I understand the brain, input output like a closed circuit probably not likely because it is not a component of neuron electro chemistry except when doctors write papers about a study. Even then, it only deals at the neuron transmitter level between individual synapses if it is used at all.  Input output queues seems to not be probable.
However, I think side discrimination is likely possible, since it can be more or less done with muscle control, limb control, maybe eyesight, and hearing to a limited extent.

Spoiler

. . . then I would think that the person with greater will would be the one in control. . . .

This makes me think.

I am always thinking about the future novels (see what Fox did with Star Wars--and the hundreds of novels). Scene: a young Na'vi taronyu tries to pull a Jake and become "Toruk Makto." Let's say he is not the fastest, strongest, best in any way, Na'vi. He wants to prove himself to Ninat (my g/f) or some other Na'vi hottie.

But Toruk wins the dominance in the bond. I haven't figured out what would happen, but it would be ugly.  <--click me!

There is a Fan Fic story on one of the fanfic website, where someonne wrote this story where a kid successfully bonded with Toruk without being chosen.  In reading the story, the whole concept of some random schmuck bonding with toruk without a good reason, is literally Jumping the Toruk IMHO!

[Tsu'roen]

Spoiler

Well most of the Na'vi are left handed, a little quirk Cameron decided since he is left-handed, so it would make sense that they would grab their queue with their left hand more often then their right.
...

But it seems the left-handedness applies largely only to archery. They use their knives for example with their right hands:

As for the dual links - they may make sense either in a herd or simply for redundancy. The bonds the Na'vi have with animals are to "impose" their will on them. But animals of the same species may use it as a means of communication among each other or use them like antennae for probing plants (as seen with the direhorses). I mean the queues must have developed for a reason more basic and vital than tsaheylu with the Na'vi. So in such cases using both links at the same time may make sense.

She does favor the right hand when killing the Nantang with her knife in the beginning of the film, this could be a goof.  However, warriors and knife fighters with some measure of experience use their strong hand for control of and defense against an opponent, stabbing and slashing is the easy part.  Even more experienced knife users can use both hands nearly equally with the blade.  I cannot say that Neytiri is either of these, but from my own experience and knowledge, this is the case.  I have not seen anything to indicate special techniques for knife use, but the point down blade out is unusual of a hunting carry of knives, and may have been from Jakes influence.  Although, I actually don't think J.C. put much of that sort of detail on the Na'vi fighting methods.
...

She is not only using her knife right-handed when finishing off the Viperwolves but is also fighting them mostly right-handed.
I think they only put a lot stress on the left-handedness for the archery but didn't care too much about the rest as that would have been tough for the (most likely) right-handed actors.

[Technowraith]

Hi there !

I've a question that stumped me and I hope that you'll be able to answer or even discuss about it.
According to the physiognomy of Pandorian's animal species like equidius, banshees or thanator, we can notice the presence of two neural queues
(the bond's receptor where the Tsahaylu is made).
The question is : What's happening if two Na'vis are both connected at the same time on each of the two queues of the animal ?
I mean, is it possible ?

In the case of equidius riding, who has the "control" if two Na'vis are connected ?
Can we imagine the effects of such an experiment ?

I've also noticed that, in the movie, all the characters are always connecting their queue on the left receptor of animals.
I suppose that's a question of convenience for right-handed people, using bows or spears, to allow more gestures without their queue bothering them...
Can we think that a left-handed Na'vi or Avatar will make his bond on the other side ?



Hoping that the subject hasn't been treated yet !
Fix me if I made a mistake or if my english is terrible : I'm French actually  

Think about it this way:L what happens when two people try to drive a car at the same time?

[Kaltxì Palulukan!]

Think about it this way:L what happens when two people try to drive a car at the same time?

Oooh! Ooh! I know this one! Pick me! Pick me! (Waves paw like Hermione spun out on caffeine)

So, like, when you are taking, like, Driver's Ed, and that creepy old shop teacher has you in the car and there are like two sets of controls. I mean it's totally weird, and there is a steering wheel on the right, like they have in some country, I think it's Englandistan, and anyway, so there are like TWO steering wheels, and TWO brakes, and I think the creepy old-guy's side has dominance or whatever, so if you try to turn right, and he wants to turn left and take you to Foster Freeze an get some ice cream, I think his steering wheel like takes over or whatever.

Srak?

[Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan]

Think about it this way:L what happens when two people try to drive a car at the same time?

Oooh! Ooh! I know this one! Pick me! Pick me! (Waves paw like Hermione spun out on caffeine)

So, like, when you are taking, like, Driver's Ed, and that creepy old shop teacher has you in the car and there are like two sets of controls. I mean it's totally weird, and there is a steering wheel on the right, like they have in some country, I think it's Englandistan, and anyway, so there are like TWO steering wheels, and TWO brakes, and I think the creepy old-guy's side has dominance or whatever, so if you try to turn right, and he wants to turn left and take you to Foster Freeze an get some ice cream, I think his steering wheel like takes over or whatever.

Srak?

I like the analogy Techno, and I like the response Palu, LOL. Englandistan...LOL.

Perhaps Tsu'roen is right as well, they use their right hand to fight with in melee combat, but fire bows southpaw.