Eywa: what is she? How does she work?

[Mithcoriel]

Kaltxi fra'po

I was just wondering a few things about Eywa. I mean, she's a rather interesting...organism.
I know some threads touch on a few parts of this, but I didn't find one that really discusses Eywa herself and her biology.
The way I understood it, the makers of the movie intended for her to be completely scientific and logic, with nothing supernatural or "magic" going on. (Anyone disagree?) So anything she does should be explicable with science, albeit maybe futuristic science-fiction-science.

So that raises a bunch of interesting questions about how she does things:

- First of all: do all animals communicate with Eywa? I kinda like to think that they do, that absolutely every life form was connected to this collective since life first evolved. Unicellular organisms might be able to do tsaheylu by simply letting the chemical signals through their skin (if they're even complex enough to grasp anything at all that Eywa can "tell" them). Bigger ones maybe through something like a flagellum. Creatures too small to have a queue could have a single retractable nerve strand or the like.
I don't know under what circumstances animals would reach Eywa through a tsaheylu, though. I could imagine an animal that drinks nectar bonding with a plant to tell it to open its petals, which the plant obeys cause the animal will also pollinate it. Things like that. And when bonding to such a site, the animal would be connected to the network.

- Can Eywa also send messages to the animals without a tsaheylu? If so, how??? Could she send pheromones through the air? Basically: how did she rally all those animals for battle? And what's also interesting: she must have given them the instructions not only to attack the humans, but also to not attack the Na'vi or each other.
And I can't help but notice that the Tsahik seems to be able to interpret Eywa's will without a tsaheylu, which sure is strange. Mo'at determined Eywa's intentions with Jake by looking at him, by tasting his blood, etc. How could the taste of his blood tell her Eywa's will? The only scientific explanation I could think of here was that the Atokirina, when they landed on Jake, marked him with some kind of chemical, like, they probed his skin to just slightly below the surface, small enough for him to not notice, and put some substance in there that tastes like "Eywa likes this guy!" to Mo'at...I don't know. ^^ But then there's also the part where, based on Mo'at's eyes widening, we can conclude she could feel the moment Grace was connected to Eywa, etc. How did she sense that? Or, do you think the Na'vi might also have elements of pure superstition woven into their otherwise scientifically provable religion?

One thing I wondered is if maybe Eywa can send signals to the brains of creatures (animals or tsahik) in the same way Jake in the machine sends signals to his Avatar. This is a form of connection we don't understand, after all. Seemingly infinitely fast, no lag, apparently no way to disrupt the signal.. Maybe in the reality of the "Avatar" movie, there is a signal type like that.

- I read somewhere that there are, what was it, three continents on Pandora? Are those all connected? They'd have to be, or there would essentially be three separate Eywa's. But what if plate tectonics cause the continents to separate? Wouldn't Eywa kind of suffer a split personality then? I mean, humans whose brains have been cut in half can still function normally, and since both brain halves are stuck in the same body and experience the same things, they continue to act as one. But if you show a picture or a written instruction to only one eye so only one half of the brain sees it, wacky things start to happen.
Or do you think Eywa has a way of transmitting her brain signals across the ocean, e.g. by water plants?
What would Eywa do if the continents started to separate? I was kind of wondering if, during the first few thousand years, when the continents aren't far apart yet, she could use birds as messengers, to carry the signal back and forth, they just do a tsaheylu before they fly off, and when they arrive.

- How did Eywa choose Jake? She hadn't tsaheylu'd with him before, how could she know anything about him? And even if he had already done a tsaheylu and she'd looked into his whole personality and memories, how did she know this person, who at this time was still completely on the side of the humans and didn't care about the Navi, was predisposed to change sides yatta yatta? Well maybe she figured that out once the Atokirina probed him. But that would still mean that the Atokirina that told Neytiri not to kill him was mere coincidence.
Still. It would appear Eywa has the ability to see the future. While in the actual movie this is only hinted at, and could be just a "good guess", with Jake switching sides, in that original script it's a bit trickyier. In Jake's dream vision, Eywa actually predicts the destruction that will happen, and Jake's taming of the Toruk. Although this could still just be a very educated guess from a huge and genius mind, but what do you guys think?

- How does Eywa improve herself over time? I mean, regular animals have got evolution for that. Animals with characteristics that harm their survivability don't reproduce, so an organ like the brain can evolve over time, with the individuals with a defective brain or a predisposition toward harmful ideas don't stay in the gene pool. But seeing as there aren't multiple competing Eywas for natural selection to work on, how did Eywa come to be the great being that she is, not some kind of crazy structure?

That's about all I can think of right now, but Eywa sure is a mystery.

[Kxanìa 'awpo]

I never really understood Eywa and that was one thing that bothered me. However, the way I see it, Eywa isnt a single entity comprised of smaller entities (like what you described), but, in fact, many small, independant entities that communicate and work together toward the goal of mutal defence. There is no collective sentience or higher super-organism. They are still independant, they have just found a very advanced way of adapting to their enviroment. The Na'vi group everything together as a deity which is just a more superstitious way of explaining how the flora and fauna communicate since they dont have the science to truly understand it.

Do you see what Im saying? Im not sure if that makes sense.

[Swoka Swizaw]

If I have read this all correctly, I suggest that you should cease thinking of Eywa (or the potential Gaia, for this world) as though we have the capacity to completely conceptualize what it is like to be or know a consciousness that "inhabits" a lifeform, formed like a planet. Eywa appears to me to be an unknown unknown.

To give my opinion about how she chose Jake - if Eywa is a coalesced piece of "universal" consciousness, as I feel that she is, her whole body (kifkey) and countenance is Her. All consciousness on 'Eywa'eveng' is an indivualized spark of the energy that is Eywa. The Na'vi are Her, so to speak. Tsaheylu is how the incarnated sparks connect back with their source. But, Eywa's connection with her children extends further than a body's queue. She (whatever "she" means in this case) can feel all things within her sphere of being. It is my opinion that she can feel all aspects of human consciousness about Her, as well. Sawtute are consciousness; She is consciousness. It's all the same, in one form or another. This is how Grace (of a different "mother") was even compatible to merge with Her, at all.

So, when Jake entered "into Her," she felt something that no other Tawtute possessed, whatever that was. She read his soul, basically. More or less, Eywa tsaheylu leiu.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

The thing about away to put it simply is that she is a higher form of life than we know it. We are organisms which are made up of organs which are made of tissues which are made of cell. But Eywa on the other hand is one class higher than us which we do not have a name for, she is made up of multiple organisms. It's a very intriguing prospect we can not hope to truly understand until we find a life form similar to her.

[Txur’Itan]

The thing about away to put it simply is that she is a higher form of life than we know it. We are organisms which are made up of organs which are made of tissues which are made of cell. But Eywa on the other hand is one class higher than us which we do not have a name for, she is made up of multiple organisms. It's a very intriguing prospect we can not hope to truly understand until we find a life form similar to her.

Symbiotic collective organic singularity. S.C.O.S.

Grace quote: "I can see her, she's real."

Whatever Eywa is, is able to operate on a single objective, and manifest for people while they are passing through the - Mo'at quote: "Eye of Eywa".  

If there are separate parts operating truly autonomously, they still serve the greater collective on various levels, or they would probably not have a name for Eywa.

If I have read this all correctly, I suggest that you should cease thinking of Eywa (or the potential Gaia, for this world) as though we have the capacity to completely conceptualize what it is like to be or know a consciousness that "inhabits" a life form, formed like a planet. Eywa appears to me to be an unknown unknown.

To give my opinion about how she chose Jake - if Eywa is a coalesced piece of "universal" consciousness, as I feel that she is, her whole body (kifkey) and countenance is Her. All consciousness on 'Eywa'eveng' is an individualized spark of the energy that is Eywa. The Na'vi are Her, so to speak. Tsaheylu is how the incarnated sparks connect back with their source. But, Eywa's connection with her children extends further than a body's queue. She (whatever "she" means in this case) can feel all things within her sphere of being. It is my opinion that she can feel all aspects of human consciousness about Her, as well. Sawtute are consciousness; She is consciousness. It's all the same, in one form or another. This is how Grace (of a different "mother") was even compatible to merge with Her, at all.

So, when Jake entered "into Her," she felt something that no other Tawtute possessed, whatever that was. She read his soul, basically. More or less, Eywa tsaheylu leiu.

Philosophically this is an interesting perspective on what happened in the film, and does draw parallels to Gaia worship dating back a great deal of time into ancient Earth history.

Kaltxi fra'po

I was just wondering a few things about Eywa. I mean, she's a rather interesting...organism.
I know some threads touch on a few parts of this, but I didn't find one that really discusses Eywa herself and her biology.
The way I understood it, the makers of the movie intended for her to be completely scientific and logic, with nothing supernatural or "magic" going on. (Anyone disagree?) So anything she does should be explicable with science, albeit maybe futuristic science-fiction-science.

So that raises a bunch of interesting questions about how she does things:

In other threads, this has been brought up.  What is EYWA, how does EYWA work, where does EYWA come from.  Tons of speculation on the site, you may want to read some of it.  But in summary, only James Cameron knows for certain at this time.

- First of all: do all animals communicate with Eywa? -- SNIP

There is reason to think so, but not every form of life that could exists on Pandora has been revealed.

- Can Eywa also send messages to the animals without a tsaheylu? -- SNIP

It is unclear, but for the time being, there does not appear to be any certain reason to believe that Eywa would have sent any messages to the Animals, not without without Tsahaylu.  There are ways for communication to spread from one connected animal to another through Tsahaylu, and from Eywa at "Tree of Voices" locations, or potentially through the expansive interconnected root systems when the creatures lay on the ground to the animals of the planet via Tsahaylu.

One thing I wondered is if maybe Eywa can send signals to the brains of creatures (animals or tsahik) in the same way Jake in the machine sends signals to his Avatar. This is a form of connection we don't understand, after all. Seemingly infinitely fast, no lag, apparently no way to disrupt the signal.. Maybe in the reality of the "Avatar" movie, there is a signal type like that.

This has been discussed tons.  It is possible, but there is not any certainty of this, if Eywa worked this way, the queues would seem to have not needed to have evolved in Pandora biology, it might have eventually become redundant.

- I read somewhere that there are, what was it, three continents on Pandora? Are those all connected? They'd have to be, or there would essentially be three separate Eywa's. But what if plate tectonics cause the continents to separate? Wouldn't Eywa kind of suffer a split personality then? -- SNIP

The connecitons between continents is unclear, the film has not explored this topic yet.  Speculate away.

- How did Eywa choose Jake? She hadn't tsaheylu'd with him before, how could she know anything about him? -- SNIP

This was discussed a ton in the forums.  

The choosing as it stands now may be defined only through Na'vi belief systems...
There may be an intelligent process being executed as a part of the "Eywa Plan"...
There could be some incidental encounters (blind chance, or fate)...  
There could be some electromagnetic peculiarities about JAKES AVTR that will get explained in the sequels...

- How does Eywa improve herself over time? I mean, regular animals have got evolution for that. -- SNIP

Eywa's biology is completely mysterious to everyone except James Cameron for now.  The Trees which connect to Eywa resemble a kind of land-corral, with its spawning of floating spores and the unusual animated tendrils.

That's about all I can think of right now, but Eywa sure is a mystery.

Indeed!

[Mithcoriel]

However, the way I see it, Eywa isnt a single entity comprised of smaller entities (like what you described), but, in fact, many small, independant entities that communicate and work together toward the goal of mutal defence.

I don't think it matters all that much. The transition between being multiple entities working together and being one entity is fluent. I think Eywa is both.
This may not seem intuitive to a human. We're used to each of us being an individual clearly separate from the others. But I already mentioned the split brain thing. If your brain was cut in half and each placed into a different body, you'd have two individuals that feel and think (they might be a bit limited and not have all the functions, but still). Maybe you can even split the brain into more, I don't know. And if a person has multiple personalities, that's even more individuals in one brain.

She (whatever "she" means in this case) can feel all things within her sphere of being.

I like that idea. It would explain a lot of parts of the plot, although we haven't got a (semi-)scientific explanation yet of how she does that.

One thing I wondered is if maybe Eywa can send signals to the brains of creatures (animals or tsahik) in the same way Jake in the machine sends signals to his Avatar.

It is possible, but there is not any certainty of this, if Eywa worked this way, the queues would seem to have not needed to have evolved in Pandora biology, it might have eventually become redundant.

Well the Na'vi can't feel consciousnesses near them the way Eywa can, so they need a Tsaheylu to bond with animals or each other.

Ma Txur'Itan: You mentioned a lot that stuff had already been discussed tons. Could you show me where? Cause I've really been sweeping over this whole board. But I assume we can still discuss it here?

[Sora57]

Here's my very simplified view of it.

The closest thing I have to a God personally is the idea that there are things that are greater than the sum of their parts-a painting isn't simply dabs of paint on a canvas, it's the idea of a picture. Eywa ties into this very nicely-this isn't just a world, it isn't just trees...all the parts of it work together as a machine/a living being to produce something far greater than any one could have produced alone.

I also think of humans as the ones who are meant to notice the beauty of the picture, to look at the empty voids of space (well, not empty if places like Pandora really do exist) and see constellations. So God is also in this creative energy that humans tap into (though we do a pretty bad job of it). The Na'Vi can tap into this energy as well through tsa'heylu.

Also-about the natural selection thing. Neytiri mentions that Eywa protects only the balance of life (and is proven wrong, of course-that was why the whole nature striking back thing annoyed many environmentalists I've talked to instead of inspiring them. It seemed like a horrible way of solving the problem-nature's not supposed to fix itself). That being said, it's probably best for animals to survive if they are organized in this global network-just as it's best for cells to survive when they're in organs.

I'm hoping that subsequent movies will explain some of the problems you brought up-normally movies tend to gloss this over, but Cameron seems pretty dedicated to this world, so maybe he'll spend some time on it. Until then, it's probably best left to the fanfic writers.

[Txur’Itan]

-- SNIP

Ma Txur'Itan: You mentioned a lot that stuff had already been discussed tons. Could you show me where? Cause I've really been sweeping over this whole board. But I assume we can still discuss it here?

Yes - but before continuing on this thread, I'd say it might be good to read up on some of this on the provided links, and offer your points and counter points there, and save this thread for a more unique discussion when more information becomes available to prove or disprove all of the speculations.

I'd say read everything here - good discussions I think - http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-customs-and-culture/navi-afterlife/

http://forum.learnnavi.org/general-avatar-discussion/question-about-ending-of-avatar/msg27199/#msg27199
http://forum.learnnavi.org/general-avatar-discussion/question-about-ending-of-avatar/msg33366/#msg33366

http://forum.learnnavi.org/navi-customs-and-culture/navi-ascension/msg43559/#msg43559

[Mithcoriel]

Yeah, I already read those threads, except for the "question about the ending of avatar" one.

The question about how Eywa "evolved" isn't that important to me I guess, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

I'm reading the ASG now, and it mentions there that the land is split up quite a bit, so it certainly is an issue how Eywa gets the signal across continents. But it also mentions there's seaweed (or something like that) across parts of the ocean, maybe that's how.

One thing that's interesting is that Eywa, it would seem, has no control over earthquakes and volcanoes, since they aren't biologic. So those happenings would be "anorganic neighbours" that have lived with her for as long as her life has existed, uncontrolled.

[magne]

Yeah, I already read those threads, except for the "question about the ending of avatar" one.

The question about how Eywa "evolved" isn't that important to me I guess, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

I'm reading the ASG now, and it mentions there that the land is split up quite a bit, so it certainly is an issue how Eywa gets the signal across continents. But it also mentions there's seaweed (or something like that) across parts of the ocean, maybe that's how.

One thing that's interesting is that Eywa, it would seem, has no control over earthquakes and volcanoes, since they aren't biologic. So those happenings would be "anorganic neighbours" that have lived with her for as long as her life has existed, uncontrolled.

Quite natural, Eywa can manipulate animals and plants with a neural system by telling them, change their thinking/ behaviour or even give directly control. 
The script says Eywa prevent diseases with counter viruses so she has no direct control over microorganisms, they are to small and stupid to be controlled.
No method for doing anything with volcanoes or earthquakes, they also involve lots of energy.

If the prevent diseases is true, she must limit the birth-rate of top predators to avoid them from becoming to numerous and you get repeating boom and followed by die off.   

[Mithcoriel]

The script says Eywa prevent diseases with counter viruses so she has no direct control over microorganisms, they are to small and stupid to be controlled.

And how does she control the counter viruses then?

Anyway, wether an organism is stupid wouldn't be a factor in if it can be controlled. Isn't there some kind of virus on earth that changes the behavior of ants, making them do things they wouldn't normally do? All Eywa needs to control little animals are some hormones and enzymes.

[Swoka Swizaw]

Yeah, I already read those threads, except for the "question about the ending of avatar" one.

The question about how Eywa "evolved" isn't that important to me I guess, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

I'm reading the ASG now, and it mentions there that the land is split up quite a bit, so it certainly is an issue how Eywa gets the signal across continents. But it also mentions there's seaweed (or something like that) across parts of the ocean, maybe that's how.

One thing that's interesting is that Eywa, it would seem, has no control over earthquakes and volcanoes, since they aren't biologic. So those happenings would be "anorganic neighbours" that have lived with her for as long as her life has existed, uncontrolled.

Well, what exactly is "biologic" to you? If Eywa is the SPIRIT of the planet, She is all of it. It's a presupposition that She is not a part of the geological sphere of Her body, the planet, itself. She could very well control Her "bodily spasms." As for the issue of connection, if She is everything, then it's alright to assume that She is everywhere. Whatever we've seen that the Na'vi use for tsaheylu (the trees), is most likely the easiest way that Eywa has evolved to do so.

[Tsa'räni]

I'll be surprised if this is ever explained.  I think it will ruin some of the mystery and uniqueness of Pandora if they eventually go into a huge scientific explanation (and this coming from someone that usually wants everything explained down to the last detail).

But I tend to think of Eywa as encompassing more than can be fully explained with science.

[magne]

The script says Eywa prevent diseases with counter viruses so she has no direct control over microorganisms, they are to small and stupid to be controlled.

And how does she control the counter viruses then?

Anyway, wether an organism is stupid wouldn't be a factor in if it can be controlled. Isn't there some kind of virus on earth that changes the behavior of ants, making them do things they wouldn't normally do? All Eywa needs to control little animals are some hormones and enzymes.

Not sure how to deal with viruses, they are not technical alive They might have limited time they can divide like human cells have.

I read about the mind control of ants, very fascinating. And yes hormones could be used on animals without neural system; Pandora's microorganisms might hormones to. 

[Mithcoriel]

Well, what exactly is "biologic" to you? If Eywa is the SPIRIT of the planet, She is all of it.

Biologic, to me, is something that can be logically explained by science, which relates to life. Where, if a scientist got samples from all the right places and was allowed to look at the processes through a microscope yatta yatta, they would know exactly what's going on and why and how.

What do you mean by "spirit"? Sounds like you're leaning more toward the assumption that Eywa is supernatural then. Of course, if she's a supernatural kind of spirit, then she's not limited to the living matter. Then obviously she can also control the geology.

It's a presupposition that She is not a part of the geological sphere of Her body, the planet, itself. She could very well control Her "bodily spasms." As for the issue of connection, if She is everything, then it's alright to assume that She is everywhere.

I "presuppose" this based on what we have from the movie. Grace explained that Eywa is in fact real cause they can measure "her" in the trees, that they know the forest around Pandora is like a brain. Based on this explanation, Eywa would be able to control plants, since they're part of her, Eywa would be able to make some form of intelligent decisions, since she's like a brain, and she would be able to control animals, since they apparently do tsahaylu regularly. At least we know she must control animals cause she answered Jake's prayer.
But if you wanna claim she can also control geological, non-living processes as well, that's a new claim. So far there's no scientific explanation to support this, nor have we seen her control plate tectonics the way we saw her control animals. That's why I would consider it the "null hypothesis", not a presupposition, that she can't control geology. Unless of course, as I said, you're just picking the option that she's supernatural, an actual goddess. Then of course everything is possible. Of course if she's everywhere, she can do everything. But thing is, I can't think of a scientific explanation for how she could be "everywhere".

[Swoka Swizaw]

Mithcoriel, don't you think that the concept of Eywa goes against everything that our science, materialistic in nature, has determined to be the "truth." No, I do not feel that Eywa is a goddess. But, She is a fully sustained field of consciousness that is in the form of a planet.

If we are to assume that everything that we know about the world today, through the method of "matter first" so to speak, is correct, then everything that we are doing here, supposing anything about something that, one, is fiction, and, two, is not possible as "consciousness" cannot exist outside of a brain, let alone the idea of a brain forming the size and shape of a planet, is pointless.

For any further conversations about Eywa, I feel that we must first realize what we are really talking about. Eywa is not a goddess. She is not supernatural, because all things are natural; there's nothing "super" about any of it. To further converse about the "deity" of Pandora, we must throw aside any notions we have about scientific materialism, because they fly out of the window as soon as you speak of a planetary consciousness as though it is "real," as Grace put it.

And, for a quick elaboration on my use of the word, "spirit," I meant a unit of (measurable) consciousness. That word that drives so many people crazy, I think. If we could remove the notion that consciousness and spirit were, somehow, things that will always seem greater, or outside of a reasonable day's study, as well as the absurd  idea that our science is anywhere near complete, then I feel that concepts like Eywa could not only be grasped with much more proficiency, but also understood to have an impact, here, on this planet. Perhaps, even real.

As science has proven, life is all a connected web of energy - why shouldn't it already be alive?

[Mithcoriel]

Well I have no problem with the idea that Eywa has a brain made of stone and magma and stuff that encompasses the whole planet and works in a way humans haven't thought of yet. That's one theory.

And there's always the possibility that things are scientific in the Avatar universe, but not in ours. So if you're saying that in that reality, a consciousness could exist outside a brain, in a scientific way that our science today can't grasp (and maybe not even the science of that future) then okay.

If we are to assume that everything that we know about the world today, through the method of "matter first," is correct, then everything that we are doing here, supposing anything about something that, one, is fiction, and two, is not possible as "consciousness" cannot exist outside of a brain, let alone a brain forming the size and shape of a planet, is pointless All of our endeavors here are pointless.

Or, wait, are you saying there could be something other than matter holding Eywa together, which is still scientific? Such as, dunno, another dimension of matter or whatever?
Well, I don't know, anything's possible. Like I said, we just have basically these three options of what Eywa could be:
- Purely scientific, explainable (or almost) by today's scientific knowledge
- Purely scientifc in this fictional world, explanable by the fantasy-science that Cameron makes up
- Supernatural.

[Swoka Swizaw]

I suppose I am glad that you keep asserting that "anything is possible," because, yes, I am saying that something else is holding together/is Eywa. Isn't the scientific method a tool through which we see the world? When I see you persisting to compartmentalize life into "scientific" and "supernatural," I can't help but feel that you, like so many others, lose yourself to this idea our method is complete, so to the point that all we're doing is checking our notes. I know that there is so much more to discover, out there, but we haven't had a quantum leap in a while. Usually, whole new fields and pursuits of science come after the paradigm has shifted. Sure, we have technology, the emergence of A.I. and the like, but look at where we are heading as humans mimic "God" making circuits in his own image. We have not evolved much.

Isn't it possible that such things that we once misbelieved to be "supernatural," things that are much grander and, at their non-institutionalized core, more fulfilling and whole, could be the next leap unto the future? 'Cause at the rate we're headed, ever dividing our lives, all encompassed by the notion of a purely materialistic, "soulless" destiny, that bleak pit of future doesn't look any better.

[Mithcoriel]

When I see you persisting to compartmentalize life into "scientific" and "supernatural," I can't help but feel that you, like so many others, lose yourself to this idea our method is complete, so to the point that all we're doing is checking our notes.

Well point is, we're talking about something fictional. Where, under normal circumstances, we might say "There's no way we can know what Eywa is, cause our science isn't that good yet", James Cameron can know with 100% certainty if Eywa is scentific or not. And we can speculate how he meant it.

[Swoka Swizaw]

Well point is, we're talking about something fictional. Where, under normal circumstances, we might say "There's no way we can know what Eywa is, cause our science isn't that good yet", James Cameron can know with 100% certainty if Eywa is scentific or not. And we can speculate how he meant it.

Well put...