How does Toruk choose its rider?

[Kea peyral]

When Toruk first drops out of the sky while Neytiri and Jake are hunting - doesn't he go straight for Jake?

Perhaps it went straight for Jake because he is an avatar, not a Na'vi.  Therefore he is classed at an alien threat in the mind of the Toruk.

You must think outside of the box with these things.

Also, I must add.  Toruk did not choose Jake as a rider.  Jake even said himself in the movie.. "if he's the top predator in the sky, why would he feel the need to look up." That is not the exact quote, but it was along those lines.  So, with that in mind we have to come to the conclusion that it was Jake's cunning which decided he should be rider of the Toruk.

I want to talk about the Banshee as well.  In my mind it is not the Banshee that chooses it's rider at all.  That is just the Na'vi way of thinking due to tribe tradition and belief.  Jake is told that one will choose him, and he will know because it will try to kill him.  But, thinking outside of the box we can come to realise this... If that Banshee is the only one to try and kill Jake, it is the bravest and strongest Banshee in the flock.  Meaning? The Na'vi have the best of the best for their mount.  The bravest and strongest.  I hope you will understand my way of thinking.

[true Navi]

why say Banshee
sky people call ikran banshee

[Kea peyral]

I did not know the Na'vi word.  I have a lot to learn with the language..

Txoa Oe.

[true Navi]

not worry even i have lot to learn even thou i was original

[zineketaye]

Kaltxì!

I think, tsaheylu is a matter of partnership and (some sort of) domination  - depending on the difference of how far evolved (how powerful) the connected nervous systems and brains are. The smaller the difference, the more partnership - but never pure domination, since the feelings, fears, wishes of the "lesser" brain are instantaneously also part of the more powerful one.

This put beforehand, we have:

the question is once you bond with an animal, bit toruk or not.. can they reject you?

As said before - as long as tsaheylu is established, you will dominate the other, will be dominated or - more likely - have to negotiate mentally what to do. Tsaheylu always is bi-directional. And if a Na'vi can open the bond willingly - as we can see more than once in the movie - that may be possible for the animal too (provided it can get a grab on the connection to pull it apart).

When the bond is opened, every part is free in his doings. See the Pa'li going after their business, the Banshees coming in at a call, and: See Neytiri rejecting Jake.

Then let me have a word on this:

i have noticed Toruk behaves as a partner not as a mere mount. it seems it only allows Jake to ride it for the sake of pandora and EYWA

I am absolutely convinced that you are right. A Toruk bonded with a Na'vi is more than a means of transportation or a symbol. He and his rider are toruk makto, both bearing the responsibility to fulfill their task and to help each other in doing so.

Look at that moment, when Jake is calling to Tsu'tey to accept and to help him. Tsu'tey is hesitating - feeling the people waiting to hear his "yes" and feeling his heart crying "NO!!". Then Toruk stretches his figure in the background, glancing at Tsu'tey and catching his eye: "Dude! Don't you see whom you are facing?". And so Tsu'tey speaks the words: "Toruk makto! I fly with you".


To get back to the original topic of this thread. In the german section of this forum I have encountered others saying "Toruk doesn't choose at all. It's always a Na'vi, feeling the urge to do something extraordinary, who goes out and catches one, like Jake did."

I have responded, that there where five toruk makto since the time of the first songs. When Grace is reliable in saying, the Omatikaya lived in Hometree since the Stone-Age on Earth, that would be some 20.000 years, and a toruk makto appears once in thousands of years only. There would have been more attempts of becoming toruk makto, and tales about Na'vi doing so in vain effortlessly. But no, the songs just say: "Toruk chooses him".

So in the conclusion I think, neither Na'vi nor Toruk choose to become toruk makto. But when the need is at hand, Eywa will see to it, that the right pair will find each other. And there might be some sort of verificational testing, like toruk trying to kill the Na'vi, to prove it's the right one.


Eywa ayngahu!

Edit: Fixed wrong vocab ...

[Kea peyral]

So in the conclusion I think, neither Na'vi nor Toruk choose to become toruk makto. But when the need is at hand, Eywa will see to it, that the right pair will find each other. And there might be some sort of verificational testing, like toruk trying to kill the Na'vi, to prove it's the right one.

I don't believe in that.  I believe that all it took was Jake's different way of thinking.  His human mind came to a conclusion that the Na'vi never have, perhaps due to overwhelming fear.  His mind was open to new idea's, he was fearless and felt powerful in his avatar body.  Why wouldn't he? It is an incredible improvement from any human body, not to mention of course, the fact that he is/was bound to a wheelchair.

If we think about it with logic.  This beast is something of a legend.  If it only appears "once in thousands of years" then the Na'vi will naturally be fearful of it.  After all, it's something they have never witnessed before.

On the other hand we have Jake.  He is fearful of nothing on Pandora.  Everything is new.  He just does what is required to survive.  In this case, make the connection with Toruk.

[zineketaye]

If we think about it with logic. 

Yes, and I think one of the wonderful features of this movie is the presentation of an alien world that is very much believable and therefore - to some extend - approachable to terrestrian logic. But pardon me, I do think you are sitting much more in your terrestrian in-box, than actually thinking "out of the box" ...

I think there is more to the Na'vi-saying "The Hunter has to choose his Ikran, and the Ikran has to choose the Hunter" than just "The Hunter may choose between those staying to fight". When introducing tsaheylu to Jake, teaching him to ride a Pa'li, Neytiri calls it "the bond" - but obviously there is a special type of bond, the bond for life, which is more than the mechanical tsaheylu. Not to be established with Pa'li, but with Ikran and amongst Na'vi. To establish that bond for life, you got to have positive decisions from both partners.


Additionaly you may have got me wrong here and there - or I am getting you wrong now:

• Na'vi - unlike lessknowing human Jake - are too fearful of toruk? What to the five toruk makto of the Na'vi history?
• The beast toruk is nothing of a legend. It belongs to the fauna of eywa'eveng and therefore is a wellknown, everyday threat for all Na'vi in the air (just like the palulukan on the ground). It is only that a Na'vi gets to be Rider of the Toruk once in thousands of years.
• On the subjective side of Jakes decision to try and become toruk makto, I'm with you. And once more: This happened five times before. Those five Na'vi may also have succesfully decided to become toruk makto. But it is not reported as their decision, but as toruks choice. Why that?
  I'v already put the question the other way around: When it is the decision of the Na'vi, to become toruk makto, why does that happen so seldom? I would rather think, it happens every now and then, but success is seldom. Again: If so, why is it reported the other way around?
• Please bear in mind, that every partner is free to do as he pleases, once the (mechanical) bond of tsaheylu is opened. Even if the "bond for life" is established, as you can see with Neytiri and Jake. So why shouldn't the beast toruk turn away from Jake, or even take him for lunch?
  In fact - as mentioned before - toruk behaves as a partner to Jake in the task to perform as toruk makto.

So, as a conclusion: You are right, that Jake is taking his decision as his free will. But he wouldn't have succeded, if he wasn't choosen long before that. He is just not yet "seeing" enough to realize it.

And yes: This is the very toruk Jake and Neytiri have encountered before (from the script and environmental information).

[Kea peyral]

You are right.  Your knowledge is greater than mine, I see that now.  Finally I'm starting to make sense of things in my mind Thanks for your shared information.  My posts were, at best, my own theory on the matter.  Having read your post it's making more sense.