Is there a Na'Vi civilization?

[Elektrolurch]

I hope not.

I think it's a quite interesting question, since i saw Avatar for the first time, I think about it, and there's just no solution, so I want to know your opinions 

A long time ago, I read the book 1984 by George Orwell, in the middle of the book is a sentence: "inequality is a price of civilization". Then i thought, why does Mankind have a civilization, what are the advantages? As presented in the movie, the Na'Vi are happy..... "happy". There are no disease, no inequality, no poverty, no climatic problems, ...

I know, that most of us would prefer living as a Na'Vi on Pandora, if we had the chance to choose.


What do you think about it?


Eywa ayngahu

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

By civilization I'm assuming you mean a society that has developed cities and a complex form of government.

From what we've seen the answer is quite clearly no. In anthropology the Na'vi we've seen are what we call "Chiefdoms." They have an official leader, but everyone as a semi-equal voice. They are of a shamanic religion, meaning that there is no complex hierarchy of religious leader. The people have a more direct connection with their god, but the shaman has unique means of communication. They also usually act as medicine-man/woman, as Mo'at clearly does.

There are plenty of hardships for these people though. You should be wary of making this way of life romantic. How do you say there is no disease? Disease is not a cause of civilization. It is one of the things that has helped protect us from it. With out civilization there never would have been the specialization of science and we would have never even known what caused disease, let alone efficient ways to prevent them. I have no doubt the Na'vi have disease, Pandora isn't free from microbes, we just didn't see any during the movie.

There is no form of culture better than another. Civilization has its benefits and cons while Chiefdoms have the same. With Chiefdoms you are closer to your kin and are to a degree, equal among each other, but there is just as much of a chance of unhappiness as with civilizations. You are completely at the will of Mother Nature, a bad rainy season could mean starvation for many.

Civilization allows specialization. Butchers, blacksmiths, artists, philosophers, scientists. None of these careers would exist without civilization. It is also needed to sustain a large population.

Yes with civilization you also get a class system that separates people but in modern times we are able to fight it.

There are plenty of cultures like the Na'vi on Earth and their lives are filled with hardships and happiness. As an anthropology student I do plan on spending some years living with them, but I know plenty of people couldn't. The movie showed us good parts of living as one of them and Jake was a hardened marine. He could handle the tough lifestyle.

It's not as fun or perfect as the movie made it seem. I know that most in this site would like to visit a world like Pandora, but few would like to live there long term. Most are not prepared to live it as you would have to give up every luxury you know, like learning a new language over the computer.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

The thing is we don't see nearly enough of the planet or culture to tell if there really is any disease, poverty, inequality, or climatic problems. Though one can assume that Pandora could be prone to massive earthquakes as a result of orbiting a gas giant which tends to happen on some of jupiter's moons.

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

It's not a perfect civilization. In the movie, if you listen to Neytiri closely when she talks to Jake about Toruk, she says that tribes wee brought together "time of great sorrow". So, we can assume that something or a disease struck the tribes which caused this great sorrow. It's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect, for no one can achieve perfection. There is always something that could make it better.

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

When and if perfection is ever reached, there is no point to living.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

It's not a perfect civilization. In the movie, if you listen to Neytiri closely when she talks to Jake about Toruk, she says that tribes wee brought together "time of great sorrow". So, we can assume that something or a disease struck the tribes which caused this great sorrow. It's not perfect. Nothing is ever perfect, for no one can achieve perfection. There is always something that could make it better.

In technical terms it's not a civilization at all. Sadly the English language has used this term to describe if one culture is "better" than another. Really all it means is whether or not a society has developed cities or not, which the Na'vi have not. Civilizations also mean large populations. Hometree has a few hundred to a thousand Na'vi, not nearly enough to be classified as a civilization. They fall under the Cheifdom category of classification.

[Elektrolurch]

Wow, a genius is talking to me  

With "disease" i didn't mean illnesses like influenza, or pestilence, i mean adipositas or some syndromes ... What I wanted to say, is, that much more people in non-civilizated cultures are happy than in our. Another problem is, that a too big civilization reduces the available habitat of other animals or creatures. Have you ever been to Detroit? I have never been there, but even when i sit in the car, driving along the highway next to the VOEST-industries in Linz ... Thats the main reason, why I would prefer a life without civilization ...

(In my eyes, our civilization is decadent and doomed. What i love about the Na'vi is, that their culture lasts forever, i mean, there is nothing speaking against that. Earth dies, and it's Mankind's fault. I know, I'm very pessimistic ....)

It's just wonderful to be able to dream





I know, that every culture is tortured by something, i meant, that our civilization causes the problems itself. Sure, we have buildings, and weather forecast, .... but adepositas, aids, climatic problems, ...

[Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn]

The reason they are so happy is because they learn to appreciate what they have, something many people today don't do.

And as many may say ignorance is bliss. The curse of being a genius is being able to recognize the flaws in everything, but it takes a wise person to look past the flaws. Wisdom is something that can't be learned it has to be experienced.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Not a genius, merely an anthropology student.

I'm still confused by your reference to disease. AIDs started outside of civilization you know. Every culture meets disease from time to time. It has nothing to do with whether they're a civilization or not.

No culture is forever. All cultures change, some just slower than others. All eventual fall, some through violence, others just from time. The way of the Na'vi will eventual change. It's just a fact of life.

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

If you think about it, it will always be the simplest culture that will survive over the more advance ones. If you have a more advanced civilization, the more ways for it collapse under it's own weight. The simple cultures will last longer, but could be wiped out easy like if a disease kills everyone or something.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Very true. Simple cultures have a tendency to change little over time (though they still are changing) and last longer than a culture that has a lot more complexity in it. Still they are at a much higher risk of being completely wiped out due to things like disease and, like the movie showed us, invasion. Most stories don't end on such a high note. Just look at Natives. 

[Elektrolurch]

Right

And i think, the human civilization changed a lot in about 200 years. In the 19th century, electricity was hardly available, and now we are nearly able to fly to Mars


I don't know how i should describe what i mean with "diseases". Some illnesses developed during the rise of our civilisation. Adipositas e.g. ... or some psychological syndromes.


When I sum up, I'm just not happy in such a big and advanced culture. 

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

Exactly!
Those simple cultures have people that are truly happy with their life, yet they know it's not perfect, and that there is always risks of being wiped out. I would go with simple culture even with the risks and hardship which are a part of life, rather than a more complex one no matter how easy of life of the complex one.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Psychological diseases do have a bit of a rise in more complex civilization, but once again most occur in other cultures as well. They may just not see them as a mental illness. Schizophrenia as an example can often times be a sign of a shaman in band societies.

Right now, we are developing at an exponential rate. We are children playing with new toys. Either we'll learn how to properly play with them and survive as a society for a bit longer, or we'll fail and something else will rise to take our place.

Advance societies bring plenty of good with them too. Try to think about those. If you can't, why not try getting out of it? I'm always confused when I hear people complaining about where they live. Why don't they move?

I'm also wary about how happy people think these cultures are. A simple culture doesn't mean happiness. There are plenty of things to sadden them, just as many as we have. Be very wary of just making this a romantic notion, or else you'll be sorely disappointed if you ever go out and see a new culture.

Happiness is something that comes from inside, it is something you have to make for yourself, it doesn't instantly come from your culture.

[Elektrolurch]

The last question is a very personal one.

What property of your life is the most important for you? Is it luck, might, money, society, knowledge, proudness, ... I think, differently developed civilizations fulfill different properties. For my own, the most important ones are luck, and maybe a bit knowledge ...


In our society, you can gain money and might more easily than in the Omatikaya.

You hear me complaining about the society I'm attending. Why don't I escape? I would love to do so...

Happiness IS a matter of culture, as far as Homo Sapiens is a social creature. The clan, society, class, .. plays an amazing big role, I think  


(I bet, this article is full of mistakes pls correct me)

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

I agree with that.

I love where I live, no doubt about that. Sorry, if it seemed that I didn't like our civilization and want to get out of it. I was stating my mind.

I know that our civilization could be so much better than it is. Yes, there are lots of good things that come out of the civilization.

We could also learn more from the smaller more simple cultures.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

Yes we are a social creature so we must have social interactions. What I'm saying is that every culture has alternatives, if there is something about your culture you don't like you can escape it if you try hard enough.

I think in all cultures the most important thing is kin-family and friends. It is universal. It is in the other areas that we differ. The Omatikaya (note the "k" the Na'vi language has no "c" just so you know) have no need for money because they are trained to make everything they own. This is good, unless you're not that great at making a bow, or you'd rather paint than go out and hunt.

I'm just saying that there are just as many opportunities for a Na'vi to get depressed as a person in a developed civilization.

I point out what I don't like about my culture all the time, but I still love it. I agree that it's good to point out it's faults, that's how we make progress. I was talking about people who clearly state they would like to live some place else but don't make the effort to move. There is nothing stopping you but yourself.

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

Ah, that's true. If people don't like the civilization, then why don't they get out nothing is stopping them, but themselves.

We are a material civilization, we mass produce products and other stuff, with mass-production comes lot of waste. I like to make my own stuff, because it gives me a sense of accomplishment instead of just going out and buying a already pre-made product. If I don't know how to make something then I try to learn how to make one.

[Tìng Eywatikìte'e]

And that shows your ability to break away from the cultural norm to make yourself happy. Good job. I enjoy making somethings, but I won't lie, I like buying stuff too. 

[Eywal ngaru teing oeti]

Thanks! That's true. There are some instances that I have to buy stuff as well. I think a lot of people should start making their own stuff instead of buying them, but no one can make them.