Author Topic: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan  (Read 2521 times)

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Offline 'Onatxan te Skxawng Tìrey'itan

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Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« on: July 18, 2012, 07:37:19 pm »
This has been nagging at me mind for some time: So in the Omaticaya, Neytiri is the daughter of Mo'at and Eytukan, who are the spiritual and clan leaders (respectively). Neytiri was gonna become the knew spiritual leader, and Tsu'tey was gonna be the new clan leader.
What I don't understand is, where does Tsu'tey come from? It seems that Mo'at and Eytukan are mated, and therefore had Neytiri, so I can understand her future role. But why is it that Tsu'tey is gonna be the new clan leader?

I came up with a few solutions, but then realized that they were factually wrong: Olo'eyktan and Tsahìk aren't mated, and so being clan leader is passed on, and like wise for spiritual, or Neytiri and Tsu'tey are siblings, and so one son becomes clan leader and one becomes spiritual. Then i remembered that those couldn't be true because of the known relationships.
Nga txo ke flä nìsngä'i, rä'ä kivä Eywa'evengne! ;)

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2012, 08:31:30 pm »
I, too, have wondered about these interesting wrinkles in the plot.  Here's how I see the possibilities:        In most tribal cultures that I have encountered and/or read about, the leadership roles are usually handed down WITHIN the family structure, not necessarily father to son.  As with the Navajo, cousins are all regarded as brothers and sisters.  And if your son was an absolute skawng, you wouldn't want him to run the affairs of a tribe. A nephew might prove more able.
   Although the Na'vi refer to each other as brother and sister, it is clear that note all are qualified equal inheritance of leadership! (just an observation on the side!)
  I know of an instance of a person who was adopted into a Samoan Family. of a paramount chief.  This person, ma oeyä muntxate, was offered a position of authority as a Matai, but turned down the honor because it also involved an arranged marriage.  Two families in alliance could govern the community for quite a while by arranged marriages.  Tsu'tey might have been a son from a previous or different spouse.  In cultures where leaders have multiple wives, this often lead to rivalries among the people vying for authority.
  If we can assume that spiritual gifts are inhereted through a mother's genes, then BOTH of Mo'at's daughters, Neytiri AND Sylwanin, would have been in position to be tsahik.  If Tsu'tey had been betrothed to Sylwanin, Neytiri just might have inherited her betrothal to Tsu'tey from Sylwanin.
   Jane Aol, (sp) has written a seies of novels on Stone age culture.  Although fictionalized, they seem to be derived from anthropological research on such cultures and the complications of their familial and political power structures. MY TWO CENTS!

Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2012, 08:38:52 pm »
Kaltxì!

One of the best sources to answer this comes not from the film, but from the original script itself.  It makes a great read and offers more insight to parts of the film that were either cut, or modified.  (And some of the modifications made sense, at least to me.)

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Avatar.html

Perhaps others more knowledged on native / tribal cultures can validate this, but I'm of the opinion (and only that...) that if there isn't a male child born to the tribal leader, then a proven warrior may be recognized.  Essentially a "second in command" and one that leads the warriors off to battle.  We see this as Tsu'tey leads the patrol on pa'li, and he leads the hopeful ikran makto initiates up Iknimaya.  (This leadership role may even be one of his responsibilities for his position.)  A further suggestion validating his fierce capability is not only portrayed in camp when he first insults Jake claiming to be a capable warrior (of the jarhead clan), but if you notice his right ear, he has a chunk missing.  It's just a visual presentation on film, but it's there.

I'm not certain whether your thought was that the Olo'eyktan and Tashìk aren't mated.  I think it's clear that Eytukan and Mo'at are, as the ritual is that you have to be recognized as a full warrior / hunter before you can choose a woman.  And in the script, you have to survive the dream hunt prior to being recognized by Eytukan and the clan as a full member of the clan. 

Regarding the history of Eytukan and Mo'at, that is not revealed in the film or script.  Only that they are sempul and sa'nok to Neytiri.

As to regarding Tsu'tey and Neytiri being a mated pair, I think the script implies that their roles are to be the next Omaticaya leaders.  And what's really fascinating is that Tsu'tey was not originally Omaticaya!  And when Neytiri reveals she mated with Jake, that Mo'at (in the original script) stated that if Neytiri followed that path, she was wasting her life.  Interesting that even after mating (which cannot be undone), Neytiri still had a choice...  This is, of course, neatly redeemed when Tsu'tay declares Jake to "Lead the People".

** I like the idea that Tsu'tey may have been promised Sylwanin.  Two other possibilities might exist.  One, that he was promised Neytiri AFTER Sylwanin was killed by the troopers.  Two, that perhaps Sylwanin didn't follow in Mo'at's role as Tsahìk?  Perhaps to become the successor as Tsahìk that you have to be recognized?   :-\  **


Here are parts of the original script that may help you finding the answers you seek:

(When Jake arrives as Toruk Makto)
Quote
JAKE (SUBTITLED)
Tsu'tey of the Rongloa, son of Ateyo. I stand before you, ready to serve the People.
(then just for Tsu'tey)
You are Olo'eyctan, and you are the best warrior. I can't do this without you.
         
Tsu'tey struggles with his emotions. Finally --
         
TSU'TEY
I will fly with you.

Note that the Rongloa is another clan.  (Ref. Na'vi dictionary - source JC)


(A cut scene from the talioang / sturmbeest celebration.)
Quote
Jake and Neytiri flow amongst the dancers, but they are looking only at each other.
         
A couple of the young girls watching from outside the circle are giggling and talking about them. Mo'at and EYTUKAN follow their look, seeing the obvious connection.
         
MO'AT
(SUBTITLED)
We cannot let this seed grow. Her path is with Tsu'tey.
         
ON JAKE, dancing with abandon to the primal beat, eyes locked with Neytiri.


(The scene when it is revealed that Jake and Neytiri have mated.)
Quote
 
He sees TSU'TEY striding toward them, his face a mask of fury.
         
TSU'TEY
You!
         
Tsu'tey walks right up and SLAMS Jake in the chest with both hands. It is so unexpected, that Jake topples on his ass.
         
TSU'TEY
You mated with this woman?!
         
GRACE
Oh s***.
         
Jake stands. He reaches out for Neytiri.   She goes to him, clutching his hand.
         
MO'AT
Is this true?
         
NEYTIRI
(SUBTITLED)
We are mated before Eywa. It is done.
         
Tsu'tey turns to Mo'at and Eytukan, his face anguished.
         
TSU'TEY
(SUBTITLED)
Neytiri was promised to me! Everything is changing. Everything is being destroyed!
         
Tsu'tey points at Jake, his pain shifting to rage.
         
TSU'TEY
(SUBTITLED)
These aliens kill everything they touch, like poison.
         
MO'AT
Neytiri! If you choose this path, you can never be Tsahik. Your life will be wasted.
         
Neytiri looks at her mother -- sees the grief in her eyes.
         
NEYTIRI
I have chosen.
         
Tsu'tey draws his knife and --





Offline Reykoveyzä te Werufalä Haflak'ite

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2012, 09:40:19 am »
but we know that Tsu'tey's full name is Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan.

this implies that Tsu'tey is of the Rongloa family, not the Rongloa clan.

Where did you get the information that Tsu'tey wasnt omaticaya from?
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Offline Pam (P.A.'li makto)

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2012, 10:55:18 am »
but we know that Tsu'tey's full name is Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan.

this implies that Tsu'tey is of the Rongloa family, not the Rongloa clan.Where did you get the information that Tsu'tey wasnt omaticaya from?
Exactly!

The fact that Tsu'tey was the best hunter and warior in the clan (we could see scenes where it is obvious) and he was the one who led the young people to Iknimaya may be enough to be an olo'eyktan-to-be. (Since the leader couple had only a daughter(s)!) Not possible?  :-\
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 11:51:39 am by P.A.'li makto »

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Offline eejmensenikbenhet

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2012, 11:16:01 am »
Rongloa indeed is just a family name, in the same way, Tskaha is Neytiri's family name. (Compare: Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan and Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite.)

I find P.A.'li's explanation most plausible, the leadership (within olo' leOmatikaya) is passed on from generation to generation (most probably to the eldest child of the Tsahìk/Olo'eyktan pair) and this male/female will be guided to a worthy mate by his/her parents. And as Tsu'tey is a good eyktan and good tsamsiyu/taronyu, he would be considered "worthy" for Neytiri.

Offline Reykoveyzä te Werufalä Haflak'ite

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2012, 11:19:28 am »
I find P.A.'li's explanation most plausible, the leadership (within olo' leOmatikaya) is passed on from generation to generation (most probably to the eldest child of the Tsahìk/Olo'eyktan pair) and this male/female will be guided to a worthy mate by his/her parents. And as Tsu'tey is a good eyktan and good tsamsiyu/taronyu, he would be considered "worthy" for Neytiri.
mllte oe, ma 'eylan ;)
Irayo, ma frapo, ma oeyä smuke sì ma oeyä smukan.
Vivar 'ivong Na'vi! Eywa ayngahu!



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Offline Taronyu Leleioae

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2012, 11:41:02 am »
but we know that Tsu'tey's full name is Tsu'tey te Rongloa Ateyo'itan.

this implies that Tsu'tey is of the Rongloa family, not the Rongloa clan.

Where did you get the information that Tsu'tey wasnt omaticaya from?

It's listed in the dictionary as a Proper Noun as a clan from JC.  Perhaps an error?  Or maybe from the original list prior to Frommer defining the language?  Rongloa: ["RoN.lo.a] JC prop.n. a clan

Thinking further about this..., this again was from the original script written prior to the language being formalized.  An interesting question as to what JC was meaning...
« Last Edit: July 19, 2012, 12:16:24 pm by Taronyu Leleioae »

Offline Pam (P.A.'li makto)

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2012, 11:56:15 am »
Quote
It's listed in the dictionary as a Proper Noun as a clan from JC.
It really is...  :-\ But in this case it also means that Neytiri wasn't Omatikaya originally either because her name is also listed there...  :-\
Anyway, it won't change anything, will it?  ::)



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Offline 'Onatxan te Skxawng Tìrey'itan

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2012, 03:15:54 pm »
Quote
It's listed in the dictionary as a Proper Noun as a clan from JC.
It really is...  :-\ But in this case it also means that Neytiri wasn't Omatikaya originally either because her name is also listed there...  :-\
I think "te [ name ]" refers to family, as JC is of the Cameron family.

So basically what y'all are saying, anyway, is that leader of whatever applies is passed down to the eldest child, whichever that may be, and their muntxatu is whoever is deemed best/most worthy, of the opposite sex?
Nga txo ke flä nìsngä'i, rä'ä kivä Eywa'evengne! ;)

Offline Reykoveyzä te Werufalä Haflak'ite

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2012, 03:42:21 pm »
basically yes, though leadership might pass to the most suitable child[i/] of the current olo'eyktan and tsahìk.
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Offline eejmensenikbenhet

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2012, 06:33:19 pm »
That's my theory, however, we may only apply this to the Omatikaya. We know for example that there is a clan that has a female leader (the Ikran Clan that lives on the coast). We don't know if that clan has a Tsahìk/Olo'eyktan couple as we only see this red-painted female leader.

Offline 'Onatxan te Skxawng Tìrey'itan

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2012, 07:13:34 pm »
true point. i mainly meant for the Omatikaya, but it is good to analyze what we know about other clans also.
Nga txo ke flä nìsngä'i, rä'ä kivä Eywa'evengne! ;)

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2012, 10:54:47 am »
Not to throw a spanner into the works, but isn't it true that in ancient Egypt the Pharaoh and his sister, if he had one, became spouses?

"Incest is a fringe interest in most societies. However, Beachcombing has learnt, on a morning trip to his local library, that there are some curious exceptions: a number of Hawaiian clans, certain tribes in the Solomon Islands and, of course, the most famous of them all, the Egyptian pharaohs.

"Now, it is common knowledge among lovers of antiquity that the Egyptian royal line married its own members: a result of divine kingship being passed in a matrilineal fashion, through the woman, but divine kingship being (generally) practised by men.

"Typically this involved brothers marrying sisters. So before Cleopatra bedded Caesar and Mark Anthony she was, as Egyptian custom demanded, the paramour of her brothers Ptolemy XIII and Ptolemy XIV.

"This Egyptian royal tradition of keeping marriage within the family can, of course, be mirrored in other royal lines. The present king of Thailand is the grandson of a brother and sister pairing. And, it was possible to argue – up until the Second World War – that the various royal lines of Europe were in reality a single cankered rose bush. The desire to keep precious royal blood untainted by plebeian Earls and Dukes presumably trumped worries about a murky gene pool.

"What is fascinating about Ancient Egypt though is that the tradition went far beyond the royal house. For many years it was argued that this was not in fact the case and that to claim that Egyptian society was incestuous was to misunderstand the Greek and Latin words used to describe family members on the Nile Delta. In short, Classicists blushed imperial purple and moved rapidly on before their snotty students could ask for more. But this attitude has slowly changed and antichisti now spend hours pouring over the details of Egyptian family life in the Roman period. Surviving census parchments from the Egyptian deserts – particularly those relating to Arsinoe – demonstrate that in urban settings between a fifth and a third of married couples were married siblings or half-siblings. Extraordinary numbers."


Offline Seze Mune

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Re: Inheritance of Tsahìk and Olo'eyktan
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2012, 11:00:40 am »
Not to say that Tsu'tey and Neytiri were siblings in that way, but who knows how they were related?  It could be they were cousins.

 

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