Kissing :)

[Keye'ung]

The theory that they learned kissing from humans is a good one but think guys... the only humans they have met and seen are all military and scientist types. Its unlikely the humans were getting lovey dovey in the middle of a mission tour.... maybe its just me but I'm sure the Na'Vi knew about kissing before humans invaded their planet 

[Txur’Itan]

pom: [p.om] F v. kiss

seyri: [sEjRi] C;S n. lip ~ {me+seyri} two lips

I think that at the very least, there are Na'vi words for it.

Jakeyä meseyri a Neytiriru peykom.

[Kìte'eyä Aungia]

Regarding pressing forehand and nose together and then breathing in and out - this sharing of breath is indeed common in some cultures, but I am not sure if it does replace the kiss?

From what I understand, in the West, the sharing of breath was a Christian thing done between couples (because breath is the breath of God) and was replaced by the kiss, which was initially a very rebellious thing to do.

[Nyx]

Maybe it's not rebellious in the Na'vi point of view. And I still think they could have thought of kissing without sawtute being involved, maybe even before we came up with it (that would indeed be hard to tell though )

@MaTe: I'm sure they're very different from us and most likely don't have the same chemicals as we do at all, but they probably have some kind of intercellular signaling system and they do make deep emotional bonds. And those aren't unrelated. But I guess this should be in a different topic, hehe...

[MaTe]

Na'Vi don't even have DNA in the same chemical sense as humans [...]

MaTe - I now read that twice - can you point me to the source of this detail? I have been searching through the Na'vi section of the ASG when I first stumbled over that detail but did not find anything regarding this.

http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/the_avatar_program

Is this a respectable source? I assumed it is since it got a link from avatarmovie.com

[Tsa'räni]

I think Pandorapedia is a little questionable.  I know it's linked from the movie site, but I wouldn't take everything there as set in stone.

[Txur’Itan]

Na'Vi don't even have DNA in the same chemical sense as humans [...]

MaTe - I now read that twice - can you point me to the source of this detail? I have been searching through the Na'vi section of the ASG when I first stumbled over that detail but did not find anything regarding this.

http://www.pandorapedia.com/doku.php/the_avatar_program

Is this a respectable source? I assumed it is since it got a link from avatarmovie.com

That link also tells us this...

Awards

Dr. Lovecraft has been nominated for multiple Nobel prizes in biological sciences, but the nominations have invariably been withdrawn following protests from human rights organizations, the UN Pan-Faith Council and animal rights activists.

---

In all seriousness, based on how DNA actually transfers information, and handles its separation and merging processes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_ligase, there cannot be significant differences between HUMANS and AVTR unless neither set or only one set is represented in the merged clone, otherwise the clone would completely fail to live.  So what the AVTR is, fundamentally remains a mystery, but it is portrayed as a hybrid, which means DNA and chemical processes that are compatible, thus sufficiently similar enough to produce a hybrid.

[txur txe'lante]

oel ngati kameie ma tsmukanni ulte tsmukeeni

I think you are looking too deep. I feel this has nothing to do with any sort of chemical or brain function. The act of kissing is one that humans relate to in showing love. whether the Na'vi utilize it or not is not of great importance. the point of it is that it is an expression of love that humans can relate to that James Cameron used in his film for us to be able to relate to the love between Jake and Neytiri.

If the Na'vi have a different approach to that matter, Humans in a movie theater would not have recondnized it so It would not hold as much importance.
Ewya ngahu
kiyevame

[Txur’Itan]

oel ngati kameie ma tsmukanni ulte tsmukeeni

I think you are looking too deep. I feel this has nothing to do with any sort of chemical or brain function. The act of kissing is one that humans relate to in showing love. whether the Na'vi utilize it or not is not of great importance. the point of it is that it is an expression of love that humans can relate to that James Cameron used in his film for us to be able to relate to the love between Jake and Neytiri.

If the Na'vi have a different approach to that matter, Humans in a movie theater would not have recondnized it so It would not hold as much importance.
Ewya ngahu
kiyevame

That is what is already known from readily available information, and any sane experienced movie attendee would likely understand this already. 

What this conversation is actually about, is a discussion on possibilities, based on understanding, within the fiction of the story. 

[Zefanaya]

The theory that they learned kissing from humans is a good one but think guys... the only humans they have met and seen are all military and scientist types. Its unlikely the humans were getting lovey dovey in the middle of a mission tour.... maybe its just me but I'm sure the Na'Vi knew about kissing before humans invaded their planet 

Kaltxi. niwotx aynga pesu tìyawn Eywa (fell free to correct that I have problems with placement)

going to throw in my two cents here.

On the theroy that the Na'vi learned kissing from Tawtute I believe is viable, I think of it this way when we (humans) first go to a new place (inknown place) we send a scout team or expedition team to the area, I think RDA did something like this before just sending a full military force, expedition teams would be escorted by some form of early Spec Ops but I would like ti think that these early expedition teams of scientists and researchers would be more friendly with the Na'vi (or they would have just killed us long ago (speculation) ) and perhaps the Na'vi saw two people kiss and asked what they were doing.
Option two, Grace Augustine taught the Na'vi children and clearly some of the adults not just English but about humans and in turn she learned about the Na'vi so I think during here time with the Na'vi she may have demonstrated some of the good things about humans (Tawtute), and just throwing it in the children did tend to call her mother (not as their biological mother but as an older person who cared for them and loved them, she was their 'eylan and visa versa (taken from the 2007 script) ).

hope it helps

Eywa ngahu.

[Tsu'roen]

...

On the theroy that the Na'vi learned kissing from Tawtute I believe is viable, I think of it this way when we (humans) first go to a new place (inknown place) we send a scout team or expedition team to the area, I think RDA did something like this before just sending a full military force, expedition teams would be escorted by some form of early Spec Ops but I would like ti think that these early expedition teams of scientists and researchers would be more friendly with the Na'vi (or they would have just killed us long ago (speculation) ) and perhaps the Na'vi saw two people kiss and asked what they were doing.
Option two, Grace Augustine taught the Na'vi children and clearly some of the adults not just English but about humans and in turn she learned about the Na'vi so I think during here time with the Na'vi she may have demonstrated some of the good things about humans (Tawtute), and just throwing it in the children did tend to call her mother (not as their biological mother but as an older person who cared for them and loved them, she was their 'eylan and visa versa (taken from the 2007 script) ).

hope it helps

Eywa ngahu.

I think both possibilities are very plausible.
And where humans are they behave like humans ...
But I have a hard time seeing Na'vi adopting a human habit.
And I do not think that kissing is a natural habit of the Na'vi. As Neytiri says - they have something better.

The only Na'vi we see kissing is Neytiri and she is involved with a human/Avatar.
So it makes some sense that she comes half his way - a way she knows either from Grace, Jake or observations of human/Avatar scout teams.

[Ash]

[...]
I think both possibilities are very plausible.
And where humans are they behave like humans ...
But I have a hard time seeing Na'vi adopting a human habit.
And I do not think that kissing is a natural habit of the Na'vi. As Neytiri says - they have something better.

The only Na'vi we see kissing is Neytiri and she is involved with a human/Avatar.
So it makes some sense that she comes half his way - a way she knows either from Grace, Jake or observations of human/Avatar scout teams.

I am really undecided if the Na'vi would adopt such a habit - although I do consider them open-minded enough to try out something and adopt it if it is pleasurable.
On the other hand, as Txur'Itan pointed out, they already have a word for it. I don't think this would exist if the kiss would not have some significance in their society, regardless of it being native or adopted.

As for Tsahelyu - to me this is a very different component, as it is an emotional or even spiritual bonding which does not exclude any physical/bodily actions. So in my opinion it is rather addition than replacement.

And yes, I also noticed that we see no other Na'vi kissing. There I do have two ideas: First, I think there is a lot we just don't see. There are not so many scenes where we see other Na'vi in daily situations long enough to expect that there something(like a kiss) should have happened if they know/practice it. Second, the Na'vi don't seem to be very casual about touching each other. To me it seems that touching another Na'vi usually is done with a certain meaning(like Tsu'tey showing that he finally does accept Jake when he returns as Toruk Makto). So maybe they just do not smooch around when they are all sitting at the fire in the evening, but keep this to more one on one siutations.

(Just my ideas, I know there are a lot of "maybe" in there.)

[Tsu'roen]

...
On the other hand, as Txur'Itan pointed out, they already have a word for it. I don't think this would exist if the kiss would not have some significance in their society, regardless of it being native or adopted.
...

Here we get on slippery ground.
The language has already started evolving - even if only from Frommers side - so it becomes blurry what content is in canon with JC's Avatar universe and what is just language development for human (Fan) use. As far as I understand Frommer wants to create a language that is usable for humans of our time. That is fine - but it also means that the language will contain words or meanings that it shouldn't as the native language of the Na'vi.
So the existence of a word can but does not have to mean that something really exists for the Na'vi.

[Ash]

Good point. Now with Avatar only out for a few months we already could use some kind of linguistic historian  (or at least some way to distinguish between Avatar-Na'vi and common-use-Na'vi)

[Txur’Itan]

...
On the other hand, as Txur'Itan pointed out, they already have a word for it. I don't think this would exist if the kiss would not have some significance in their society, regardless of it being native or adopted.
...

Here we get on slippery ground.
The language has already started evolving - even if only from Frommers side - so it becomes blurry what content is in canon with JC's Avatar universe and what is just language development for human (Fan) use. As far as I understand Frommer wants to create a language that is usable for humans of our time. That is fine - but it also means that the language will contain words or meanings that it shouldn't as the native language of the Na'vi.
So the existence of a word can but does not have to mean that something really exists for the Na'vi.

And while that may be true of real languages, yet that only applies if J.C. and Paul Frommer allow Na'vi to wander down that path.  The community may wish to influence it one way or another, but languages change based on circumstances, they are not immutable reliefs of granite than can never be eroded or chiseled into new shapes and forms.

Anyhow, this is getting very very far off topic, there is a whole forum section with a sticky thread debating this very topic, and that is where it should definately be discussed. http://forum.learnnavi.org/vocabulary-expansion/pandoran-vs-non-pandoran-things-concepts-words-keeping-track/

On with the subject of Kissing... 

[Kìte'eyä Aungia]

Here we get on slippery ground.
The language has already started evolving - even if only from Frommers side - so it becomes blurry what content is in canon with JC's Avatar universe and what is just language development for human (Fan) use. As far as I understand Frommer wants to create a language that is usable for humans of our time. That is fine - but it also means that the language will contain words or meanings that it shouldn't as the native language of the Na'vi.
So the existence of a word can but does not have to mean that something really exists for the Na'vi.

But on the topic of vocabulary creation Frommer said this, which seems to imply that he is already aware of this issue and has already been taking care not to include any non-canon content:

Also, please understand that although I'll do my best, I may not be able adopt all of your suggestions as proposed. In particular, there may well be questions involving the culture and daily life of the Na'vi that I couldn't, or shouldn't, answer before consulting with James Cameron, who needless to say is a very busy man.

[Zefanaya]

Here we get on slippery ground.
The language has already started evolving - even if only from Frommers side - so it becomes blurry what content is in canon with JC's Avatar universe and what is just language development for human (Fan) use. As far as I understand Frommer wants to create a language that is usable for humans of our time. That is fine - but it also means that the language will contain words or meanings that it shouldn't as the native language of the Na'vi.
So the existence of a word can but does not have to mean that something really exists for the Na'vi.

But on the topic of vocabulary creation Frommer said this, which seems to imply that he is already aware of this issue and has already been taking care not to include any non-canon content:

Also, please understand that although I'll do my best, I may not be able adopt all of your suggestions as proposed. In particular, there may well be questions involving the culture and daily life of the Na'vi that I couldn't, or shouldn't, answer before consulting with James Cameron, who needless to say is a very busy man.

just a comment on Paul he can only release parts of the language that Fox says he can because the language is property of the movie, and my two since maybe Neytiri kissed Jake just to keep from having an awkward moment she knew how humans reacted in those situations (speculation) and was willing to try it.

Eywa ngahu.

[Duma Vadamee {Aungia Tsawkeyä}]

it could possibly be that

[Txur’Itan]

Maybe the Na'vi have a hidden propensity for cannibalism, and and she was tasting him?

[Na'ríng Tsmuke]

Maybe the Na'vi have a hidden propensity for cannibalism, and and she was tasting him?

ROFLMAO