Na'vi Afterlife

Started by Tìng Eywatikìte'e, January 19, 2010, 02:18:13 PM

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Tsu'roen

But Eywa isn't some spiritual being - it is the combined intelligence of the network of plants and animals. So Eywa will be killed when the network is destroyed or severely damaged
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"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

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Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Exactly, but, the Na'vi say "Eywa is everywhere" so you have to figure that they can connect with their diety just about anywhere they want to.
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Tsu'roen

Yes, it is spread over most of Pandora (excluding the poles I presume)
But the question is how much damage can the network sustain without stopping to function properly?
Eywa is kind of a planet size brain, created by the network of trees. Animals are probably more loosely linked.
Now the question is how much redundancy does it have. Is the Tree of Souls a vital point the network can not function without? Will it still function properly with a continent gone?
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

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Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

I think that taking out the tree of souls would be sort of like shooting someone in the head, most likely you would die from the trauma but there's a very tiny percent chance that you would live. Albeit with diminished brain capacity.
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Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

That seems to make sence, but its only one tree on one continent, so maybe just the capacity of that continent would diminish.
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Nìwotxkrr Tìyawn

I think the continents are all connected, Pandora doesn't have immensely vast Oceans like we do. They could be close enough that some sort of underwater vegetation connects them or really really long tree roots.
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Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Could be, of course it could also be that something underwater keeps the continents disconnected.
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Tsu'roen

Quote from: Tukruyä Tsamsiyu on February 07, 2010, 12:15:28 PM
That seems to make sence, but its only one tree on one continent, so maybe just the capacity of that continent would diminish.
The Tree of Souls could be an equivalent to the Amygdala or Hypothalamus regions of the human brain. Those regions are small but any damage will cause severe consequences. From becoming imbalanced or mentally ill over memory loss to death.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

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That could be true as well.
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Toruk Makto

#109
Or, like was referenced in the film, the ayutral could just be terminals where the data is accessed and the actual storage of the data (read personalities/consciousness of the ancestors of the Na'vi and other life) is actually distributed throughout the entire structure that is the whole of Eywa. The Tree of Souls would be like the system terminal that resides at the closest point to the core of the network which would theoretically be at the highest point of concentration of superconductor material (revealed at the well of souls by the magnetic arches). Important if you need to be able to have 'root' access to the system, but not the only point of actual retrieval capability for daily use.

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Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Yea, but whats to say there aren't more places like the Tree of Souls? The "roots" of the systems so to speak.
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Quote from: Tukruyä Tsamsiyu on February 08, 2010, 07:50:07 PM
Yea, but whats to say there aren't more places like the Tree of Souls? The "roots" of the systems so to speak.

Maybe every continent has one?  Total speculation there, but I could see that.

Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Yea, that makes sense too. I can only imagine that a moon can only take so much magnetic interference and still maintain a viable atmosphere though.
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Tsu'roen

The movie hints kind of that those special "interface points" have to be in an especially strong flux vortex and I suppose there aren't too many of those ...
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

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Kätsyín te Zotxekay Tsyal’itan

Yea, but when the first Tree is destroyed by the dozer, there is no flux vortex, or the RDA would not have been able to see Jake destroy the camera on the dozer. The flux would've interrupted the transmission.
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Toruk Makto

That's a good catch. Usually the flux points had the RDA instrumentation going all wonky, but the image on the remote operator's monitor at the Hell's Gate tower was pretty clean.

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Tsu'roen

Quote from: Tukruyä Tsamsiyu on February 09, 2010, 06:27:57 PM
Yea, but when the first Tree is destroyed by the dozer, there is no flux vortex, or the RDA would not have been able to see Jake destroy the camera on the dozer. The flux would've interrupted the transmission.
Well, while the Tree of Voices was important to the Omatikaya and was a powerful interface it was rather minor compared to the Tree of Souls. So there was a difference.
"There are many dangers on Pandora, and one of the subtlest is that you may come to love it too much" ~ Dr. Grace Augustine

"You have a strong heart. No fear. But stupid!  Ignorant like a child!" ~ Neytiri te Tskaha Mo'at'ite

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Tsa'räni

Yeah, the Tree of Souls is very different from the Tree of Voices or Hometree.  Those other places were never mentioned as having that kind of flux vortex, or at least not nearly strong enough to cause real issues.

Mithcoriel

Sorry in advance for a long post. ^^ I'm commenting on the previous 8 pages..

You guys were talking about "returning the energy to Eywa" after someone dies. I think that's a bit of an ambiguous description. The way I see it, there's the physical part, the nutrients of the body, which I imagine are given to Eywa to feed the trees, and then there's the consciousness, which it seems is uploaded.

QuoteOne way or another there was some thoughts in the original J.C. script development of the Arc that Grace would continue on somehow.  I think we are going to meet her within Eywa, or have her re-enter her AVTR body in the next film.

I kind of doubt that. If she could still return, why didn't she do so immediately? Mo'at said there was not enough time, implying she missed the deadline and could now no longer be transferred to the avatar. Also, I'm sure the makers don't want to play too much with the idea of being able to bring back the dead. Otherwise they could bring anyone back. Maybe not the Na'vi themselves. But have humans clone one of their ancestors, and then ask Eywa to put the mind back into the body...too much of a can of worms, don't you think?

Rebirth was mentioned here too. What exactly do you mean by that? Which part would be reborn in a new body? Wouldn't that only work if you assume there's such a thing as a soul, which is completely supernatural, not tied to a body? Cause the movie implies that such a thing doesn't really exist, the soul of a Na'vi is just their consciousness, which is stored in Eywa. And surely you don't mean to say that Eywa would put that complete consciousness back into a newly forming fetus? Even if you don't add in the memories, what are you gonna add, the personality? Leaving aside all logic of what personality the fetus would really have ended up, based on its DNA and the personalities of the parents etc.? Also, how could Eywa do something like that, unless she had a way to tsaheylu to an unborn fetus?

QuoteDo you think, there is a difference in afterlife? Or are all the people equal? Maybe the olo'eyktan and Na'Vi, who did extraordinary things gain a special status? ...

Well, how could there be a difference? I mean they seem to be just disembodied consciousnesses. What type of orders could the eyktan give anyone? Rules such as "the olo'eyktan gets to eat first" or who knows what would be sorta meaningless here..

QuoteThe 'separation of consciousness' or even 'separation of spirit from body' idea comes up a lot in the movie. For instance - when a human controls an avatar body, is that persons spirit / consciousness removed from their body and 'transplanted' into the avatar? It certainly appears that way.

I would have said yes, but only in the same way a person who's sitting in the control room remote-controlling that bulldozer has his consciousness transferred to the bulldozer. Say he didn't only see through the camera, but also hear through microphones, and maybe even feel through touch sensors.

QuoteIMO, Eywa already knew Jake was different than the scientists and that he was a fearless warrior. This was learned by observing his actions on his first outing and his confrontation with the palulukan and aynantang.

But how did Eywa observe this? Does she have eyes and ears?
Anyway, I was gonna do a thread about Eywa..

QuoteI would say Eywa is real and alive like, and that she reached out to Jake even before he set foot on Pandora.

So, you're assuming Eywa really does have supernatural abilities that aren't scientific?

QuoteBuilding Hells Gate, the RDA mine, Killing home tree, and bulldozing the Trees of Voices was like causing Brian damage.  All of that has to have had an impact, either on the individuals who have been stored, or even the overall functioning of Eywa in some way.

Well it couldn't have made a huge impact, or the Na'vi wouldn't have allowed it as much as they did. The way it is Na'vi were just mildly annoyed by the humans, sort of sad they cut down so many trees, but not to the extent that this was causing their goddess brain damage. And they seemed mad cause the humans used machine guns on them.

QuoteBut, thinking further, what if the Tree of Souls is like the storage area for all the clan's memories and if the RDA had destoyed the Tree of Souls, the entire system would be destroyed.

Well I already mentioned in another thread that I think the Tree of Souls probably wouldn't be big enough to store the memories of all those millions of deceased Na'vi.

QuoteBut the question is how much damage can the network sustain without stopping to function properly?

Well I'm quite sure that Eywa can't suffer severe mental damage. I mean that would be just weird. Can you imagine Eywa going insane cause too many trees were cut down? (Spooky). Or suffering major memory loss because of it, like some Alzheimer patient?
If only for dramaturgical reasons, I don't think Eywa works that way. So I guess she must be built somewhat redundantly. I could imagine the souls of the dead might be at risk, if the movie-makers choose to have it that way, but I don't think Eywa herself can be. (Unless you kill all the trees on the planet.)
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Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
Sorry in advance for a long post. ^^ I'm commenting on the previous 8 pages..

You guys were talking about "returning the energy to Eywa" after someone dies. I think that's a bit of an ambiguous description. The way I see it, there's the physical part, the nutrients of the body, which I imagine are given to Eywa to feed the trees, and then there's the consciousness, which it seems is uploaded.

Direct references from the film, I am not in disagreement on how ambiguous it is, but it IS the ONLY Na'vi interpretation available.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteOne way or another there was some thoughts in the original J.C. script development of the Arc that Grace would continue on somehow.  I think we are going to meet her within Eywa, or have her re-enter her AVTR body in the next film.

I kind of doubt that. If she could still return, why didn't she do so immediately? Mo'at said there was not enough time, implying she missed the deadline and could now no longer be transferred to the avatar. Also, I'm sure the makers don't want to play too much with the idea of being able to bring back the dead. Otherwise they could bring anyone back. Maybe not the Na'vi themselves. But have humans clone one of their ancestors, and then ask Eywa to put the mind back into the body...too much of a can of worms, don't you think?

Rebirth was mentioned here too. What exactly do you mean by that? Which part would be reborn in a new body? Wouldn't that only work if you assume there's such a thing as a soul, which is completely supernatural, not tied to a body? Cause the movie implies that such a thing doesn't really exist, the soul of a Na'vi is just their consciousness, which is stored in Eywa. And surely you don't mean to say that Eywa would put that complete consciousness back into a newly forming fetus? Even if you don't add in the memories, what are you gonna add, the personality? Leaving aside all logic of what personality the fetus would really have ended up, based on its DNA and the personalities of the parents etc.? Also, how could Eywa do something like that, unless she had a way to tsahaylu to an unborn fetus?

The movie gives us a ton of clues to possibilities with regard to the ToS:
1) Jake/Grace have no Tsahaylu.
2) The visual queue of AVTR transmit from humans in the link was the same as what Grace saw when she went to be one with Eywa
3) The ability to do a transfer thing either implies a huge leap of faith, experimentation, or prior knowledge: the dialogue from Mo'at implies the latter.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteDo you think, there is a difference in afterlife? Or are all the people equal? Maybe the olo'eyktan and Na'vi, who did extraordinary things gain a special status? ...

Well, how could there be a difference? I mean they seem to be just disembodied consciousnesses. What type of orders could the eyktan give anyone? Rules such as "the olo'eyktan gets to eat first" or who knows what would be sorta meaningless here..

QuoteThe 'separation of consciousness' or even 'separation of spirit from body' idea comes up a lot in the movie. For instance - when a human controls an avatar body, is that persons spirit / consciousness removed from their body and 'transplanted' into the avatar? It certainly appears that way.

I would have said yes, but only in the same way a person who's sitting in the control room remote-controlling that bulldozer has his consciousness transferred to the bulldozer. Say he didn't only see through the camera, but also hear through microphones, and maybe even feel through touch sensors.

That would imply an incomplete input output structure for the AVTR, and be susceptible to interference, malfunctions, data errors.  Why not just set the driver up at a terminal?  Why would it be "DANGEROUS" to unlink unexpectedly?  These things come up in the film.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteIMO, Eywa already knew Jake was different than the scientists and that he was a fearless warrior. This was learned by observing his actions on his first outing and his confrontation with the palulukan and aynantang.

But how did Eywa observe this? Does she have eyes and ears?
Anyway, I was gonna do a thread about Eywa..

This is inferred, and its from some of the early script drafts, which show an intention behind the aggressiveness of Pandoran wildlife towards humans, but that whole concept may be dropped by the sequel.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteI would say Eywa is real and alive like, and that she reached out to Jake even before he set foot on Pandora.

So, you're assuming Eywa really does have supernatural abilities that aren't scientific?

J.C. said in one of his many interviews that this film is part fantasy.  There may be scientific principles applied to a point, but there simply is not technology or scientific understanding enough to manifest real understanding of things like Eywa, floating mountains, or the ISV without considering major components of them completely implausible.  So many discussions here ride that fence a ton.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteBuilding Hells Gate, the RDA mine, Killing home tree, and bulldozing the Trees of Voices was like causing Brian damage.  All of that has to have had an impact, either on the individuals who have been stored, or even the overall functioning of Eywa in some way.

Well it couldn't have made a huge impact, or the Na'vi wouldn't have allowed it as much as they did. The way it is Na'vi were just mildly annoyed by the humans, sort of sad they cut down so many trees, but not to the extent that this was causing their goddess brain damage. And they seemed mad cause the humans used machine guns on them.

Maybe they have some specific system of controlled concern that is tempered by their knowledge of being sent to Eywa after death to Live on...

There is no way for anyone to be sure of what the Na'vi know about Eywa and how it functions. On one hand, they have nearly perfect understanding of one particular function "brain transfer", and on the other, they did not know Eywa would/could "Rally the Wild Life for war."
  There could be a few more things like this which turn into discoveries about Eywa by the Na'vi.

If they knew it would cause that sort of Damage, or that humans would cause that sort of damage, ahead of time, then preemptive attacks would seem normal. But, from the film, they seem to have been unaware of the more serious consequences of a human presence on their planet until their people and their planet came under direct attack.  Then they were ready to form a war party once the Trees of Voices where bulldozed, "First serious Offence" from their behaviour and reactions.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteBut, thinking further, what if the Tree of Souls is like the storage area for all the clan's memories and if the RDA had destroyed the Tree of Souls, the entire system would be destroyed.

Well I already mentioned in another thread that I think the Tree of Souls probably wouldn't be big enough to store the memories of all those millions of deceased Na'vi.

I agree, that is why I posed the ToV node Idea, or the root-link integration idea.

Quote from: Mithcoriel on February 10, 2010, 06:50:37 PM
QuoteBut the question is how much damage can the network sustain without stopping to function properly?

Well I'm quite sure that Eywa can't suffer severe mental damage. I mean that would be just weird. Can you imagine Eywa going insane cause too many trees were cut down? (Spooky). Or suffering major memory loss because of it, like some Alzheimer patient?
If only for dramatically reasons, I don't think Eywa works that way. So I guess she must be built somewhat redundantly. I could imagine the souls of the dead might be at risk, if the movie-makers choose to have it that way, but I don't think Eywa herself can be. (Unless you kill all the trees on the planet.)
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